Article: Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars

[wolviex]

Radu!
It's midnight in Poland, so please let me give you only few minor notes to your article. Tomorrow, with a good luck and a little more time (I'm during flat repir and removal) I'll bring photo of Augustowka sabre and a few notes about "winged" hussars.

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Starting 13th century the Turko-Mongols were constantly raiding via the steppes of Ukraine in all Poland... [/I]

... and exactly not all but only south of Poland (mainly provinces of Little Poland and Silesia). The Monghols army (called in Poland Tartars) gained Krakow, but could't succesfully siege Krakow's church of St. Adalbert. Then they moved west to the Silesia, where were stopped by army of prince Henryk the Pious (1241 year). Polish prince was killed on battlefield but reduced Mongols army retreated from Poland.

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

sword inspired by the one their kings carried and named the style after him the main types being: (photo 12) "batorowka" after Stephen Báthory (having classic boot like hilt) [/I]

Of course during and after reign of king Batory, "classic" sabres were most popular, so it's not extraordinary that this were the sabres which mostly bearing Batory's name or bust on the blade. To be exact the sabres were very often rehilted, even in my museum should be a sabre with classic hussar closed hilt with Batorowka blade, and it's still Batorowka. So it is a blade with specific inscription what made a sabre Zygmuntowka, Batorowka etc, not a hilt.

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Worth mentioning is that up to 17th century (some parts even later) many cavalry trooper carried a secondary weapon, an oversized straight long sword named kontchar (a term that not 100% safe to use but scholars tend to nowadays) used to pierce chainmail and breech trough enemy lines [/I]

It's KONCERZ in Polish , estoc in English, I think (anyway this is the word used in Poland to described in English this sword). It was very long, up to 150 cm, carried under the left leg, attached under the saddle. Becouse it was very long, it wasn't possible to draw it up with one move, it was necessary to make two moves, catching the blade with the second one (o boy! I hope it's comprehensible with my English )

Anyway, You did great job here, and I'll become jealous about frequency. Now, when I'm writing this, you've crossed a barrier of 100 viewers, in one day . I tell you, I'll be jealous

Best regards

[Jim McDougall]

Radu,
Extremely colorful montage!!! and colorfully written text as well!
Seeing these wonderful photos brings back happy memories of reading in all of these books about the fantastic tales of dashing horsemen of Eastern Europe (your library seems most impressive!).You seem rightfully proud of your heritage and you have done a great job of presenting all this material.
I agree with the note that it is amazing that you can put together so much information and especially illustrations! I recognize so many of the illustrations but get frustrated when I can't find the source...a couple I did locate for future reference for the readers and I think it is important to note or caption these illustrations:
Photo B: is an officer of Bans Cavalry Regiment under Col.Nikolai Lodron, 1697
This appears in "Croatians in the Thirty Years War 1618-1648" by V.Vuksic & D.Fischer (Military Illustrated #63,Aug.1993). Obviously this antedates the period of the article but apparantly the illustration refers to a later event while costume remains standard.

* It is important to note that the Croatians and Hungarians often served together as mercenaries, especially in the 18th century for Austria and in the famed Pandour regiments.

Photo 23: A painting titled "Officer of the Imperial Guard Charging ,1812" by Theodore Gericault (1791-1824). Obviously a Napoleonic French officer and the original hangs in the Louvre. It is one of my favorite paintings, and a copy hangs in my den directly in front of me. It is to me one of the most exciting and quintessant cavalry paintings.

I know it would take a lot of room to add these notes to the illustrations but it would be very helpful and informative to what you have already completed.

***Thank you for noting my article on the Marine Corps mameluke sabres!!!

There has been considerable debate on the overall history of the development of the sabre and much of what exists remains speculative.However the period you focus on with the proficiency of Eastern European cavalry and thier direct influence on British and German cavalry at the end of the 18th century is extremely exciting and colorful, as you have well described. Rivkin's note that this influence did certainly predate the Napoleonic period is correct, with various sabres in use by some German states and the British M1788 sabres which precluded the M1796 sabres (considered the first regulation pattern).

* The schiavona actually more Balkan than specifically Eastern European, and evolved as a heavy straight sword with fully developed basket hilt used by Dalmatian mercenaries in the service of the Doge of Venice (the term loosely means Slavonic in that dialect).

* 'scimitar' is an early term for curved sabre that evolved from transliteration and does not actually refer to a distinct sword form, although it often appears in literature as a descriptive term (see Burton, "Book of the Sword" 1884, p.126. Burton allows use of the word, but in the Victorian period its use by writers was commonplace.

TVV's note on early arrival of curved sabres in Europe is also well placed ;with nomadic tribes especially Avars by 7th c. and these were known to the Franks as well with the curved sabre of Charlemagne. The more complete dynamics of the actual evolution of the curved blade is less clear, with Turkestan considered a likely region which may hold early evolution of these.

Another interesting resource for this topic is:
"Polish Sabres: Thier Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski
In "Art, Arms and Armour" Vol.I 1979-80, Ed. Robert Held, pp.221-237

Best regards,
Jim

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wolviex: If you look on photo B, the Hussar is wearing a koncerz (as far as the denomination, the lingvistics are up to the sources: Polish koncerz, Hungarian hegyestor Ukrainian/Russian kontchar French estoc de hussard. They measure between 4ft to 5 1/2 ft a fearsome piercing weapon, forget about fencing with it and therefore more of a lance than a sword, the way I see it, definatelly a distinct weapon; it was used in western Europe until mid 17th century while in Eastearn Europe (from Austria to Russia) while we fought a different enemy cavalry, the Turk, they lasted one more century past western Europe (has nothing to do with ,,slow armorial evolution,, like it made me laugh when I heard some saying) ...
As far as Polish royal personalised swords (batorowka, janowka, augustowka, wolvixowka ) , cheers for the info, see thats where I need your help the most, visual and info wise, until I talked to you and researched after knew nothing about it, so I summon you to blow the dust on those old Krakowian manuscripts you seat on and let the knowledge see the light !
Thank you again for being such a trooper (n. - friend) !
P.S. Your English is fine, you make more sense than most of my coleagues at work, if you excuse yourself one more time, i`m gonna slap you !

Jim : thank you for the kind words and youre welcome abot the linking the ,,Mameluke swords,, article. To be honest I had no ideea it was yours, which only makes it even cooler now looking back. It is rock solid, creme de la creme in the matter, I donnot know of any better on script or on-line, too bad for me, I wouldve been the next one after you to do it ! (by the way, were you a Marine ?).
As far as the schiavonna, innitially yes but let me tell its use was more extensive than you (and I once...) thought. Anyway, just like ,,The South,, is part of US , the Balkans are part of Eastearn Europe ( also by saying by not saying the Balkans when you reffer to schiavonna you avoid giving the impression that the Turks are ,,in,, this one too ...

As far as Scimitar description I think I got closer than anyone (my apologies for this vulgar display of lack of modesty... ) when I personally said :
Scimitars ,,a la carte,, are the large, one handed, Oriental, convexly curved and pointed sabers with a front facing pommel on a pistol hilt and four star shaped guard with quillions, fencing wise meant for cutting and slashing but also capable of thrusting to a limited extent. They were the most popular type of saber ever created spaning overfive centuries of life and encompassing half the world where they can be observed, mostly but not only in Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, eastern Europe and northern Africa. Most known types are : kilij, pala, talwar, karabella, saif and shamshirs but many others do exist.

As far as origins in Europe, the times I agree with but to my knowledge the Avaric nations had straight, while it was the Alanic tribes that had curved swords ... wont bet my life on it, though, I am more of Medieval and up type of guy ...

[wolviex]

Radu!
I need a little more time to gather some informations about "dedicated" sabres, so please be patiente. I wonder - do you want me to continue this thread or Batorowkas, Janowkas ... are worth of starting new thread - what is your feeling about it?
Regards

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wolviex, why dont we (you mainly... ) start a new one , its related but another subject !
For those who would like to see it, here is one more hussar Koncerz (estoc) image, look for the long sword tucked into the saddle
The romantic painting depicts a Polish Winged Hussar and was executed by Alexander Orlowsky.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Funny enough, I have meet an Estherhase, at that time living in Denmark, now, I think he is living somewhere else. Some years ago (about thirty) I even saw their castle in Austria. Very interesting thread. They were at the time a very powerfull family.

Jens

[wolviex]

Let me bring a photo of koncerz/estoc too

But it isn't thread on development of estocs - is it?

PS. I will start a new thread if I'll be able to gather interesting informations. I was even thinking weeks ago, about starting a series of articles about weapons in Poland. But being busy, I realize also, that repeating bookish informations for people who are meanly intersted in Polish weapons is simply art for art's sake (it is becouse this forum gather people who are mainly collectors - and collecting Polish armament today is almost impossible ), so I think I'll leave the idea on better times.
Regards

[Jim McDougall]

Radu,

Thank you very much for your kind words on my article on the mameluke sabres. Although I was not a marine, I have good friends who were, one who was a wing commander in a Marine fighter squadron. In a discussion where he was proudly showing the sabre he was given, he asked to know more about the history. I put together some research which evolved into an article, which I was very proud of when it was accepted by "The Marine Corps Gazette" for publication. While they used my text unedited, they used their own photos, and I would have liked to add illustrations of the swords discussed. I am extremely proud of our Marines and all of our armed forces. My son and son in law both serve in the Army presently and I am naturally most proud of them.

On the Schiavona: I dug further into files and find that you are most correct in the Eastern European attribution for these distinctive swords. I found this;
"...if, as seems probable, swords of this type were intoduced into Italy from Hungary, perhaps through Dalmatia, they are clearly very likely to have been called 'Slavonic swords'. We may be reasonably certain therefore of the original meaning of the term 'spada schiavona'".
"A Schiavona Rapier"
Claude Blair
Journal of the Arms & Armour
Society London
Vol.V, #12, Dec. 1967
More interesting is discussion by David Nicolle (Military Illustrated #134, July,1999, p.36, "Last Roman Elite") where he notes this particular term was first seen used in a Dalmatian will of 1391, and it described blades of light slashing form exported to Balkans and hilted locally. The more developed hilt forms most associated with schiavona evolved latter 15th c.

It seems quite a few of the illustrations you are using come from Iaroslav Lebedynsky's "Les Armes Traditionelles de l'Europe Centrale" (Paris, 1996).
It is interesting to note that in this book, Lebedynsky illustrates a schiavona along with a discussion of sabres (p.25).
Your photo #17 appears in this book on p.55.

Re: the note on curved sabres of Alans, Avars, the line drawings you show as photo #1 appears in Lebedynsky p.18, and is captioned from top to bottom;
1.) Alan 2.) Alan , N. Caucusus 3.) Hungarian 4.) Alan-Magyar, Charlemagne's sword received by him as gift.
These would seem to support your theory on Alan swords being curved,
however there is some evidence to curved sabres for Avars as well.

A warrior from Pannonian Croatia, 9th c. is discussed in "Croatia in the Medieval Period, 9th-14th Centuries" by V.Vuksic & D. Fischer, Military Illustrated #61, June 1993, p.14:
"...a large number of the type carried by these warriors have been discovered in the Danube basin. They are about 85 cm long with a wooden handle wrapped in leather. Such a sabre, with its curved blade, was introduced into Europe by the second wave of Avar immigrants settling in the Avar-Slav state at the end of the 7th century".

On the estoc: a very good illustration of the estoc (termed 'tuck' colloquially by Western European armies) appears being carried under the right leg under the saddle in "The Polish Rider" , Rembrandts fantastic painting of 1655. It has been later discovered by Professor Zygulski that the subject of the painting was actually a Lithuanian noble (see "Polish Armies:1569-1696" , Osprey, 1987, p.5). Zygulski is also a foremost authority on the fantastic Winged Hussars of Poland who appear in numerous illustrations in this thread. I have always considered the history of these magnificent cavalrymen one of the most interesting in the study of cavalry.

The mention of Eszterhazy's hussar regiment is also fascinating and brings forward the exciting 'panache' so admired by Western European armies.
In Wagner's "Cut & Thrust Weapons" on. p.406, there is a beautiful illustration of an officers sabre of Prince Paul Eszterhazy's hussar regiment of c.1741-1775. I once had an opportunity to acquire an identical example, and still regret not getting it!!! Interesting on these is the string of pearls motif along the back of the knuckleguard.
Jens, were there any swords displayed there in the castle? I would love to see and handle one of these outstanding sabres again!!

Best regards,
Jim