Article: Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars

Radu Transylvanicus · 27th December 2004, 09:06 PM

Thank you all for such kind words and quick replies, I will try my best to send a note to all concerns or questions emerging :

Mare Rosu: Thank you for the praise and as far as Wolviex, he was rather help and inspiration

! Just like you with the sword of Stephen the Great, my brother !

TVV : Cheers for the nice feedback, remember this is pretty much just a study made by me now back to your reply I know that Magyars for example came as early as 5th century but the earliest scimitaric sabers I know belong to 9th century; makes perfect sense what you say that should be some earliear one but thats how far I got so far and looked mainly to teritorry of Ukraine, Ruthenia or Moldavia to find the earliest examples considering going on presumption that like migration they came north of the shores of Black Sea. Please bring photos, literature, source or theory if you know of something earliear

Wolviex : My dear friend, dont be too good to me, see if any faults and lets see where can we go with these ideas...
As far the szably copy after speaking with you I agreed and did not wanna bleed financialy for such stuff.
Do you have any pics of augustostowka , that my friend, I could not find any on any book in my library, even for the notion itself I hold you personally responsible for putting it in my head

P.S. I hope wolviexowka is fine and you had a good Christmas ...

Rivkin : The European scholars (mainly French and Russian) reffer to it as the “Tcherkesso-Tartar scimitar” with slight more geographic vs. ethnological emphasis, my friend .
Inspirational is great as long as its not pretty much copycat ( Modern curved cavalry sabre story vs. the USMC mamluke sword or The 1831 Pattern British General Officers Ivory Hilted Scimitar (fancy name isnt it,

you thought ,,Polish-Hungarian sword,, was a long name) hereby mentioned : http://www.mca-marines.org/Gazette/2...mcdougall.html and lets not forget they werent much meant for battle but rather parade while the ones in the article dodged anything from the Ottomans trying to conquer Vienna or helped Napoleon conquered Europe.
Yes, the Hussar sword were prior to Napoleon but like I mentioned in here ( quote ) : That is the beginning of the ,,epee a la Hussarde,, or Hussar style saber (photo 19) who was adopted quickly by all most powerful armies of Europe from Hungarian by Austrians then Prussian, French and British and ended up glorified by the Napoleonian Era wars (photo 20) and in the 18th century it ceased to be ,, Hungaro-Polish,, and it became the European curved saber hence its mainstream adoption as it started expanding west via the armies of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and its conflicts in the 17th century ...

wolviex · 27th December 2004, 11:34 PM

Radu!
It's midnight in Poland, so please let me give you only few minor notes to your article. Tomorrow, with a good luck and a little more time (I'm during flat repir and removal) I'll bring photo of Augustowka sabre and a few notes about "winged" hussars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Starting 13th century the Turko-Mongols were constantly raiding via the steppes of Ukraine in all Poland... [/I]

... and exactly not all but only south of Poland (mainly provinces of Little Poland and Silesia). The Monghols army (called in Poland Tartars) gained Krakow, but could't succesfully siege Krakow's church of St. Adalbert. Then they moved west to the Silesia, where were stopped by army of prince Henryk the Pious (1241 year). Polish prince was killed on battlefield but reduced Mongols army retreated from Poland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

sword inspired by the one their kings carried and named the style after him the main types being: (photo 12) "batorowka" after Stephen Báthory (having classic boot like hilt) [/I]

Of course during and after reign of king Batory, "classic" sabres were most popular, so it's not extraordinary that this were the sabres which mostly bearing Batory's name or bust on the blade. To be exact the sabres were very often rehilted, even in my museum should be a sabre with classic hussar closed hilt with Batorowka blade, and it's still Batorowka. So it is a blade with specific inscription what made a sabre Zygmuntowka, Batorowka etc, not a hilt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Worth mentioning is that up to 17th century (some parts even later) many cavalry trooper carried a secondary weapon, an oversized straight long sword named kontchar (a term that not 100% safe to use but scholars tend to nowadays) used to pierce chainmail and breech trough enemy lines [/I]

It's KONCERZ in Polish , estoc in English, I think (anyway this is the word used in Poland to described in English this sword). It was very long, up to 150 cm, carried under the left leg, attached under the saddle. Becouse it was very long, it wasn't possible to draw it up with one move, it was necessary to make two moves, catching the blade with the second one (o boy! I hope it's comprehensible with my English

)

Anyway, You did great job here, and I'll become jealous about frequency. Now, when I'm writing this, you've crossed a barrier of 100 viewers, in one day

. I tell you, I'll be jealous

Best regards

Jim McDougall · 28th December 2004, 02:01 AM

Radu,
Extremely colorful montage!!! and colorfully written text as well!
Seeing these wonderful photos brings back happy memories of reading in all of these books about the fantastic tales of dashing horsemen of Eastern Europe (your library seems most impressive!).You seem rightfully proud of your heritage and you have done a great job of presenting all this material.
I agree with the note that it is amazing that you can put together so much information and especially illustrations! I recognize so many of the illustrations but get frustrated when I can't find the source...a couple I did locate for future reference for the readers and I think it is important to note or caption these illustrations:
Photo B: is an officer of Bans Cavalry Regiment under Col.Nikolai Lodron, 1697
This appears in "Croatians in the Thirty Years War 1618-1648" by V.Vuksic & D.Fischer (Military Illustrated #63,Aug.1993). Obviously this antedates the period of the article but apparantly the illustration refers to a later event while costume remains standard.

* It is important to note that the Croatians and Hungarians often served together as mercenaries, especially in the 18th century for Austria and in the famed Pandour regiments.

Photo 23: A painting titled "Officer of the Imperial Guard Charging ,1812" by Theodore Gericault (1791-1824). Obviously a Napoleonic French officer and the original hangs in the Louvre. It is one of my favorite paintings, and a copy hangs in my den directly in front of me. It is to me one of the most exciting and quintessant cavalry paintings.

I know it would take a lot of room to add these notes to the illustrations but it would be very helpful and informative to what you have already completed.

***Thank you for noting my article on the Marine Corps mameluke sabres!!!

There has been considerable debate on the overall history of the development of the sabre and much of what exists remains speculative.However the period you focus on with the proficiency of Eastern European cavalry and thier direct influence on British and German cavalry at the end of the 18th century is extremely exciting and colorful, as you have well described. Rivkin's note that this influence did certainly predate the Napoleonic period is correct, with various sabres in use by some German states and the British M1788 sabres which precluded the M1796 sabres (considered the first regulation pattern).

* The schiavona actually more Balkan than specifically Eastern European, and evolved as a heavy straight sword with fully developed basket hilt used by Dalmatian mercenaries in the service of the Doge of Venice (the term loosely means Slavonic in that dialect).

* 'scimitar' is an early term for curved sabre that evolved from transliteration and does not actually refer to a distinct sword form, although it often appears in literature as a descriptive term (see Burton, "Book of the Sword" 1884, p.126. Burton allows use of the word, but in the Victorian period its use by writers was commonplace.

TVV's note on early arrival of curved sabres in Europe is also well placed ;with nomadic tribes especially Avars by 7th c. and these were known to the Franks as well with the curved sabre of Charlemagne. The more complete dynamics of the actual evolution of the curved blade is less clear, with Turkestan considered a likely region which may hold early evolution of these.

Another interesting resource for this topic is:
"Polish Sabres: Thier Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski
In "Art, Arms and Armour" Vol.I 1979-80, Ed. Robert Held, pp.221-237

Best regards,
Jim

Radu Transylvanicus · 28th December 2004, 08:48 PM

Wolviex: If you look on photo B, the Hussar is wearing a koncerz (as far as the denomination, the lingvistics are up to the sources: Polish koncerz, Hungarian hegyestor Ukrainian/Russian kontchar French estoc de hussard. They measure between 4ft to 5 1/2 ft a fearsome piercing weapon, forget about fencing with it and therefore more of a lance than a sword, the way I see it, definatelly a distinct weapon; it was used in western Europe until mid 17th century while in Eastearn Europe (from Austria to Russia) while we fought a different enemy cavalry, the Turk, they lasted one more century past western Europe (has nothing to do with ,,slow armorial evolution,, like it made me laugh when I heard some saying) ...
As far as Polish royal personalised swords (batorowka, janowka, augustowka, wolvixowka

) , cheers for the info, see thats where I need your help the most, visual and info wise, until I talked to you and researched after knew nothing about it, so I summon you to blow the dust on those old Krakowian manuscripts you seat on and let the knowledge see the light !
Thank you again for being such a trooper (n. - friend) !
P.S. Your English is fine, you make more sense than most of my coleagues at work, if you excuse yourself one more time, i`m gonna slap you !

Jim : thank you for the kind words and youre welcome abot the linking the ,,Mameluke swords,, article. To be honest I had no ideea it was yours, which only makes it even cooler now looking back. It is rock solid, creme de la creme in the matter, I donnot know of any better on script or on-line, too bad for me, I wouldve been the next one after you to do it ! (by the way, were you a Marine ?).
As far as the schiavonna, innitially yes but let me tell its use was more extensive than you (and I once...) thought. Anyway, just like ,,The South,, is part of US , the Balkans are part of Eastearn Europe ( also by saying by not saying the Balkans when you reffer to schiavonna you avoid giving the impression that the Turks are ,,in,, this one too ...

As far as Scimitar description I think I got closer than anyone (my apologies for this vulgar display of lack of modesty...

) when I personally said :
Scimitars ,,a la carte,, are the large, one handed, Oriental, convexly curved and pointed sabers with a front facing pommel on a pistol hilt and four star shaped guard with quillions, fencing wise meant for cutting and slashing but also capable of thrusting to a limited extent. They were the most popular type of saber ever created spaning overfive centuries of life and encompassing half the world where they can be observed, mostly but not only in Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, eastern Europe and northern Africa. Most known types are : kilij, pala, talwar, karabella, saif and shamshirs but many others do exist.

As far as origins in Europe, the times I agree with but to my knowledge the Avaric nations had straight, while it was the Alanic tribes that had curved swords ... wont bet my life on it, though, I am more of Medieval and up type of guy ...

wolviex · 28th December 2004, 09:25 PM

Radu!
I need a little more time to gather some informations about "dedicated" sabres, so please be patiente. I wonder - do you want me to continue this thread or Batorowkas, Janowkas ... are worth of starting new thread - what is your feeling about it?
Regards

Radu Transylvanicus · 28th December 2004, 09:25 PM

Wolviex, why dont we (you mainly...

) start a new one , its related but another subject !
For those who would like to see it, here is one more hussar Koncerz (estoc) image, look for the long sword tucked into the saddle
The romantic painting depicts a Polish Winged Hussar and was executed by Alexander Orlowsky.

Jens Nordlunde · 28th December 2004, 09:46 PM

Funny enough, I have meet an Estherhase, at that time living in Denmark, now, I think he is living somewhere else. Some years ago (about thirty) I even saw their castle in Austria. Very interesting thread. They were at the time a very powerfull family.

Jens

wolviex · 28th December 2004, 10:05 PM

Let me bring a photo of koncerz/estoc too

But it isn't thread on development of estocs - is it?

PS. I will start a new thread if I'll be able to gather interesting informations. I was even thinking weeks ago, about starting a series of articles about weapons in Poland. But being busy, I realize also, that repeating bookish informations for people who are meanly intersted in Polish weapons is simply art for art's sake (it is becouse this forum gather people who are mainly collectors - and collecting Polish armament today is almost impossible

), so I think I'll leave the idea on better times.
Regards

28th December 2004, 02:01 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	history of the sabre Radu, Extremely colorful montage!!! and colorfully written text as well! Seeing these wonderful photos brings back happy memories of reading in all of these books about the fantastic tales of dashing horsemen of Eastern Europe (your library seems most impressive!).You seem rightfully proud of your heritage and you have done a great job of presenting all this material. I agree with the note that it is amazing that you can put together so much information and especially illustrations! I recognize so many of the illustrations but get frustrated when I can't find the source...a couple I did locate for future reference for the readers and I think it is important to note or caption these illustrations: Photo B: is an officer of Bans Cavalry Regiment under Col.Nikolai Lodron, 1697 This appears in "Croatians in the Thirty Years War 1618-1648" by V.Vuksic & D.Fischer (Military Illustrated #63,Aug.1993). Obviously this antedates the period of the article but apparantly the illustration refers to a later event while costume remains standard. * It is important to note that the Croatians and Hungarians often served together as mercenaries, especially in the 18th century for Austria and in the famed Pandour regiments. Photo 23: A painting titled "Officer of the Imperial Guard Charging ,1812" by Theodore Gericault (1791-1824). Obviously a Napoleonic French officer and the original hangs in the Louvre. It is one of my favorite paintings, and a copy hangs in my den directly in front of me. It is to me one of the most exciting and quintessant cavalry paintings. I know it would take a lot of room to add these notes to the illustrations but it would be very helpful and informative to what you have already completed. **Thank you for noting my article on the Marine Corps mameluke sabres!!! There has been considerable debate on the overall history of the development of the sabre and much of what exists remains speculative.However the period you focus on with the proficiency of Eastern European cavalry and thier direct influence on British and German cavalry at the end of the 18th century is extremely exciting and colorful, as you have well described. Rivkin's note that this influence did certainly predate the Napoleonic period is correct, with various sabres in use by some German states and the British M1788 sabres which precluded the M1796 sabres (considered the first regulation pattern). The schiavona actually more Balkan than specifically Eastern European, and evolved as a heavy straight sword with fully developed basket hilt used by Dalmatian mercenaries in the service of the Doge of Venice (the term loosely means Slavonic in that dialect). * 'scimitar' is an early term for curved sabre that evolved from transliteration and does not actually refer to a distinct sword form, although it often appears in literature as a descriptive term (see Burton, "Book of the Sword" 1884, p.126. Burton allows use of the word, but in the Victorian period its use by writers was commonplace. TVV's note on early arrival of curved sabres in Europe is also well placed ;with nomadic tribes especially Avars by 7th c. and these were known to the Franks as well with the curved sabre of Charlemagne. The more complete dynamics of the actual evolution of the curved blade is less clear, with Turkestan considered a likely region which may hold early evolution of these. Another interesting resource for this topic is: "Polish Sabres: Thier Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski In "Art, Arms and Armour" Vol.I 1979-80, Ed. Robert Held, pp.221-237 Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 28th December 2004 at 02:38 AM.

28th December 2004, 08:48 PM	#4
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Wolviex: If you look on photo B, the Hussar is wearing a koncerz (as far as the denomination, the lingvistics are up to the sources: Polish koncerz, Hungarian hegyestor Ukrainian/Russian kontchar French estoc de hussard. They measure between 4ft to 5 1/2 ft a fearsome piercing weapon, forget about fencing with it and therefore more of a lance than a sword, the way I see it, definatelly a distinct weapon; it was used in western Europe until mid 17th century while in Eastearn Europe (from Austria to Russia) while we fought a different enemy cavalry, the Turk, they lasted one more century past western Europe (has nothing to do with ,,slow armorial evolution,, like it made me laugh when I heard some saying) ... As far as Polish royal personalised swords (batorowka, janowka, augustowka, wolvixowka ) , cheers for the info, see thats where I need your help the most, visual and info wise, until I talked to you and researched after knew nothing about it, so I summon you to blow the dust on those old Krakowian manuscripts you seat on and let the knowledge see the light ! Thank you again for being such a trooper (n. - friend) ! P.S. Your English is fine, you make more sense than most of my coleagues at work, if you excuse yourself one more time, i`m gonna slap you ! Jim : thank you for the kind words and youre welcome abot the linking the ,,Mameluke swords,, article. To be honest I had no ideea it was yours, which only makes it even cooler now looking back. It is rock solid, creme de la creme in the matter, I donnot know of any better on script or on-line, too bad for me, I wouldve been the next one after you to do it ! (by the way, were you a Marine ?). As far as the schiavonna, innitially yes but let me tell its use was more extensive than you (and I once...) thought. Anyway, just like ,,The South,, is part of US , the Balkans are part of Eastearn Europe ( also by saying by not saying the Balkans when you reffer to schiavonna you avoid giving the impression that the Turks are ,,in,, this one too ... As far as Scimitar description I think I got closer than anyone (my apologies for this vulgar display of lack of modesty... ) when I personally said : Scimitars ,,a la carte,, are the large, one handed, Oriental, convexly curved and pointed sabers with a front facing pommel on a pistol hilt and four star shaped guard with quillions, fencing wise meant for cutting and slashing but also capable of thrusting to a limited extent. They were the most popular type of saber ever created spaning overfive centuries of life and encompassing half the world where they can be observed, mostly but not only in Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, eastern Europe and northern Africa. Most known types are : kilij, pala, talwar, karabella, saif and shamshirs but many others do exist. As far as origins in Europe, the times I agree with but to my knowledge the Avaric nations had straight, while it was the Alanic tribes that had curved swords ... wont bet my life on it, though, I am more of Medieval and up type of guy ... Attached Images

28th December 2004, 10:05 PM	#8
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Estocs Let me bring a photo of koncerz/estoc too But it isn't thread on development of estocs - is it? PS. I will start a new thread if I'll be able to gather interesting informations. I was even thinking weeks ago, about starting a series of articles about weapons in Poland. But being busy, I realize also, that repeating bookish informations for people who are meanly intersted in Polish weapons is simply art for art's sake (it is becouse this forum gather people who are mainly collectors - and collecting Polish armament today is almost impossible ), so I think I'll leave the idea on better times. Regards Attached Images

27th December 2004, 09:06 PM	#1
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Thank you all for such kind words and quick replies, I will try my best to send a note to all concerns or questions emerging : Mare Rosu: Thank you for the praise and as far as Wolviex, he was rather help and inspiration ! Just like you with the sword of Stephen the Great, my brother ! TVV : Cheers for the nice feedback, remember this is pretty much just a study made by me now back to your reply I know that Magyars for example came as early as 5th century but the earliest scimitaric sabers I know belong to 9th century; makes perfect sense what you say that should be some earliear one but thats how far I got so far and looked mainly to teritorry of Ukraine, Ruthenia or Moldavia to find the earliest examples considering going on presumption that like migration they came north of the shores of Black Sea. Please bring photos, literature, source or theory if you know of something earliear Wolviex : My dear friend, dont be too good to me, see if any faults and lets see where can we go with these ideas... As far the szably copy after speaking with you I agreed and did not wanna bleed financialy for such stuff. Do you have any pics of augustostowka , that my friend, I could not find any on any book in my library, even for the notion itself I hold you personally responsible for putting it in my head P.S. I hope wolviexowka is fine and you had a good Christmas ... Rivkin : The European scholars (mainly French and Russian) reffer to it as the “Tcherkesso-Tartar scimitar” with slight more geographic vs. ethnological emphasis, my friend . Inspirational is great as long as its not pretty much copycat ( Modern curved cavalry sabre story vs. the USMC mamluke sword or The 1831 Pattern British General Officers Ivory Hilted Scimitar (fancy name isnt it, you thought ,,Polish-Hungarian sword,, was a long name) hereby mentioned : http://www.mca-marines.org/Gazette/2...mcdougall.html and lets not forget they werent much meant for battle but rather parade while the ones in the article dodged anything from the Ottomans trying to conquer Vienna or helped Napoleon conquered Europe. Yes, the Hussar sword were prior to Napoleon but like I mentioned in here ( quote ) : That is the beginning of the ,,epee a la Hussarde,, or Hussar style saber (photo 19) who was adopted quickly by all most powerful armies of Europe from Hungarian by Austrians then Prussian, French and British and ended up glorified by the Napoleonian Era wars (photo 20) and in the 18th century it ceased to be ,, Hungaro-Polish,, and it became the European curved saber hence its mainstream adoption as it started expanding west via the armies of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and its conflicts in the 17th century ...

28th December 2004, 09:25 PM	#5
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Radu! I need a little more time to gather some informations about "dedicated" sabres, so please be patiente. I wonder - do you want me to continue this thread or Batorowkas, Janowkas ... are worth of starting new thread - what is your feeling about it? Regards

28th December 2004, 09:25 PM	#6
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Wolviex, why dont we (you mainly... ) start a new one , its related but another subject ! For those who would like to see it, here is one more hussar Koncerz (estoc) image, look for the long sword tucked into the saddle The romantic painting depicts a Polish Winged Hussar and was executed by Alexander Orlowsky. Attached Images

28th December 2004, 09:46 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Funny enough, I have meet an Estherhase, at that time living in Denmark, now, I think he is living somewhere else. Some years ago (about thirty) I even saw their castle in Austria. Very interesting thread. They were at the time a very powerfull family. Jens