Probably Sumatran and not Moro

Ian · 27th August 2005, 10:10 PM

This one just finished on eBay and I was disappointed to be outbid for it:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6554991416

IMO this is not, as advertised, a Moro sword, but more likely a katungung used by the Pakpak and Batak peoples of Sumatra. The katungung resembles a klewang or long pedang, has a nearly straight edge and spine to the blade, and is carried in an almost straight scabbard that widens only at the mouth (v. Zonneveld,* p. 62). Only the hilt would be atypical for a katungung, everything else looks right, including the scabbard.

Someone else bought a very nice sword, probably for the wrong reason. Sayang!

Ian.

* Albert von Zonneveld. Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago. Zwartenkot Art Books: Leiden. 2001.

Battara · 28th August 2005, 08:28 AM

Ian, what I can see as possibly looking Moro is the carving at the pommel. The rest - no. Even the decor on the scabbard near the mouth openning is closer to Bali than it is to Moro stylistically.

kai · 30th August 2005, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Someone else bought a very nice sword, probably for the wrong reason.

Well, Michael will hopefully post better pics once he got it!

I doubt that he wants to get rid of it though...

Spunjer · 30th August 2005, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Someone else bought a very nice sword, probably for the wrong reason. Sayang!

i wonder about that too, ian, if the winner bid on it with the intention of acquiring a moro piece or something else. if it's the former, it must be nice to have that kind of money to gamble, lol...

VVV · 30th August 2005, 11:37 PM

Dear Ian and others,

Just came back home and read your posts on my new sword.
Actually I wasn't aware exactly what kind of sword it was when I bid on it and I still don't know.
But I do know that I like it.
The blade looks Sumatran, the hilt looks a bit Borneo and the patterns on the scabbard looks a bit Sulawesi according to one of the main contributors to the van Z book who I discuss odd examples with now and then.
Most of my collection is "textbook swords" but as an enthusiast I find my several odd ones much more challenging and exciting.
Probably I share this interest with most of you?
Why else have a forum like this if you could find it all in Stone, van Z, Cato etc?

If anyone of you have a picture of a Katungung from the books of W Voltz (Kai or Ian?) I would really appreciate it.
I am a bit hesitant because of the lacking resemblence of the hilt etc. according to the van Z book (pict 534).
Hope to return the favour in the future...

Thanks,

Michael

Ian · 31st August 2005, 07:20 PM

Michael:

Please do post some more pictures here. The pictures with the sale were rather small and unclear.

Ian.

VVV · 1st September 2005, 07:29 AM

OK,

Michael

zelbone · 2nd September 2005, 05:41 AM

I'd be interested in seeing close-ups of the hilt. The pommel looks very Visayan in flavor...Cebuano in particular

.

VVV · 5th September 2005, 08:05 PM

The Moro/Sumatran/Visayan/Peninsular sword has arrived.
Unfortunately it's dark here now but I hope that the enclosed pictures could be of some use.
I am still puzzled on what it could be.
I haven't had time yet to check all references but what's significant is the narrow blade.
For Ian, as well as a comparison, I have put it next to a regular sized Batak Kalasan as well as an US dollar bill.
Considering the size and weight it feels closer to a Kalasan than a Visayan or Moro sword?
Please look at the blade close to the hilt. That part reminds me of a Visayan feature?
I have a very thin Tenegre in my collection but it's still much heavier than this sword.
And the seller described it as a bringback from a "WW2 Pacific Theater Veteran" (=Philippines?).
So is it Visayan (a slim binangon?), a Batak Katungung or something else???

Michael

Dajak · 5th September 2005, 08:39 PM

It looks like it s from borneo from the muruts the scabbard looks like it s made
in Sarawak not Sumatra

VVV · 5th September 2005, 08:51 PM

Thanks B,

Actually W also thought the hilt looked Borneo.
But why is it so light and small (compared to f.i. a Pakayun)?
And isn't the Muruts living in Sabah?

Michael

John · 6th September 2005, 03:41 AM

Doesn't look Murut to me, IMO. However, these indigenous people are found in Northern Sarawak and Kalimantan as well.

Dajak · 6th September 2005, 05:55 AM

Hi I can send pics off murut swords with this handle if you want
but if you look in the book off Wilhelm Hein Indonesische Swertgriffe
page 343 you can see it

John · 6th September 2005, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi I can send pics off murut swords with this handle if you want but if you look in the book off Wilhelm Hein Indonesische Swertgriffe
page 343 you can see it

Hi Dajak,
Don't have the "Wilhelm Hein Indonesische Swertgriffe" but being located where I am, I could make some verifications perhaps but be warned, I'm no expert

. Let's have a look at the pics.

27th August 2005, 10:10 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Probably Sumatran and not Moro This one just finished on eBay and I was disappointed to be outbid for it: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6554991416 IMO this is not, as advertised, a Moro sword, but more likely a katungung used by the Pakpak and Batak peoples of Sumatra. The katungung resembles a klewang or long pedang, has a nearly straight edge and spine to the blade, and is carried in an almost straight scabbard that widens only at the mouth (v. Zonneveld,* p. 62). Only the hilt would be atypical for a katungung, everything else looks right, including the scabbard. Someone else bought a very nice sword, probably for the wrong reason. Sayang! Ian. * Albert von Zonneveld. Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago. Zwartenkot Art Books: Leiden. 2001.

31st August 2005, 07:20 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Congrats Michael: Please do post some more pictures here. The pictures with the sale were rather small and unclear. Ian.

5th September 2005, 08:05 PM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	The Moro/Sumatran/Visayan/Peninsular sword has arrived. Unfortunately it's dark here now but I hope that the enclosed pictures could be of some use. I am still puzzled on what it could be. I haven't had time yet to check all references but what's significant is the narrow blade. For Ian, as well as a comparison, I have put it next to a regular sized Batak Kalasan as well as an US dollar bill. Considering the size and weight it feels closer to a Kalasan than a Visayan or Moro sword? Please look at the blade close to the hilt. That part reminds me of a Visayan feature? I have a very thin Tenegre in my collection but it's still much heavier than this sword. And the seller described it as a bringback from a "WW2 Pacific Theater Veteran" (=Philippines?). So is it Visayan (a slim binangon?), a Batak Katungung or something else??? Michael Attached Images

28th August 2005, 08:28 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Ian, what I can see as possibly looking Moro is the carving at the pommel. The rest - no. Even the decor on the scabbard near the mouth openning is closer to Bali than it is to Moro stylistically.

30th August 2005, 11:37 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Dear Ian and others, Just came back home and read your posts on my new sword. Actually I wasn't aware exactly what kind of sword it was when I bid on it and I still don't know. But I do know that I like it. The blade looks Sumatran, the hilt looks a bit Borneo and the patterns on the scabbard looks a bit Sulawesi according to one of the main contributors to the van Z book who I discuss odd examples with now and then. Most of my collection is "textbook swords" but as an enthusiast I find my several odd ones much more challenging and exciting. Probably I share this interest with most of you? Why else have a forum like this if you could find it all in Stone, van Z, Cato etc? If anyone of you have a picture of a Katungung from the books of W Voltz (Kai or Ian?) I would really appreciate it. I am a bit hesitant because of the lacking resemblence of the hilt etc. according to the van Z book (pict 534). Hope to return the favour in the future... Thanks, Michael

1st September 2005, 07:29 AM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	OK, Michael

2nd September 2005, 05:41 AM	#8
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	I'd be interested in seeing close-ups of the hilt. The pommel looks very Visayan in flavor...Cebuano in particular .

5th September 2005, 08:39 PM	#10
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	It looks like it s from borneo from the muruts the scabbard looks like it s made in Sarawak not Sumatra

5th September 2005, 08:51 PM	#11
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks B, Actually W also thought the hilt looked Borneo. But why is it so light and small (compared to f.i. a Pakayun)? And isn't the Muruts living in Sabah? Michael

6th September 2005, 03:41 AM	#12
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Doesn't look Murut to me, IMO. However, these indigenous people are found in Northern Sarawak and Kalimantan as well.

6th September 2005, 05:55 AM	#13
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi I can send pics off murut swords with this handle if you want but if you look in the book off Wilhelm Hein Indonesische Swertgriffe page 343 you can see it