Two handed swords

Jean-Marc S. · 1st April 2012, 11:11 AM

Thanks for the details and your opinon Cornelistromp.

Matchlock · 7th April 2012, 12:12 PM

This item fetched the unbelievably high price of 10,000 euro plus commission at a South German auction.

It is a good copy of a 1530's style (Ottheinrich type) Katzbalger but all stylistic and decorative elements are overexaggerated, which is characteristic of a sumptuous Historismus piece.
The blade is struck with an imitation of a Brescian eye mark which however is located too high up for a genuine piece, just below the quillons. The etching on the blade again is typical of the Historismus period, showing a warrior all'antica.
With an overall length of only 85 cm the sword is also too short; genuine Katzbalgers are usually a bit over 90 cm long provided that they have not been shortened at some later date.

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 7th April 2012, 01:14 PM

here I do not agree, this could well be a true katzbalger.
the blade looks at least good and authentic, both the position and the shape of the stamped mark, the length but also the warrior engraving probably of ABONIS and HIPORIS do look ok... 16th century.
I know at least 3 original 16th century swords with similar warrior engraving. swords from the 19th century with this type of engraving are unknown to me, but this does not mean that they don't exist.
For similar example of those warriors see Hermann Historica sale 64 lot 2312.

than the hilt, a similar, well almost indentical checked pattern at the s-guard with latten/brass can be seen on the katzbalger nr 95 published in Europaische Hieb UND Stich Waffen, Mueller, Koelling p.189. The grip is less convincing but this could be a later replacement or restoration.

best,

Matchlock · 7th April 2012, 01:20 PM

Hi Jasper,

Sorry for not sharing your opinion.

As I said it is a good and detailed copy but there are decisive details on both the hilt and ricasso that clerarly show the differences.

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 7th April 2012, 01:32 PM

of course it is good to disagree sometimes and besides Michael you can always adjust your opinion later

here a magnificent 19th century (16thC style) katzbalger with good ricasso style characteristics. same mark as the 19thC katzbalger that you mailed me

best,

Matchlock · 7th April 2012, 01:35 PM

I cannot see it.

m

cornelistromp · 7th April 2012, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

I cannot see it.

m

?

7th April 2012, 12:12 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Good Example of a Sumptuous 19th C. Katzbalger Copy This item fetched the unbelievably high price of 10,000 euro plus commission at a South German auction. It is a good copy of a 1530's style (Ottheinrich type) Katzbalger but all stylistic and decorative elements are overexaggerated, which is characteristic of a sumptuous Historismus piece. The blade is struck with an imitation of a Brescian eye mark which however is located too high up for a genuine piece, just below the quillons. The etching on the blade again is typical of the Historismus period, showing a warrior all'antica. With an overall length of only 85 cm the sword is also too short; genuine Katzbalgers are usually a bit over 90 cm long provided that they have not been shortened at some later date. Best, Michael Attached Images

7th April 2012, 01:32 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,063	of course it is good to disagree sometimes and besides Michael you can always adjust your opinion later here a magnificent 19th century (16thC style) katzbalger with good ricasso style characteristics. same mark as the 19thC katzbalger that you mailed me best, Attached Images

1st April 2012, 11:11 AM	#1
Jean-Marc S. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: France Posts: 104	Thanks for the details and your opinon Cornelistromp.

7th April 2012, 01:14 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,063	here I do not agree, this could well be a true katzbalger. the blade looks at least good and authentic, both the position and the shape of the stamped mark, the length but also the warrior engraving probably of ABONIS and HIPORIS do look ok... 16th century. I know at least 3 original 16th century swords with similar warrior engraving. swords from the 19th century with this type of engraving are unknown to me, but this does not mean that they don't exist. For similar example of those warriors see Hermann Historica sale 64 lot 2312. than the hilt, a similar, well almost indentical checked pattern at the s-guard with latten/brass can be seen on the katzbalger nr 95 published in Europaische Hieb UND Stich Waffen, Mueller, Koelling p.189. The grip is less convincing but this could be a later replacement or restoration. best,

7th April 2012, 01:20 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Jasper, Sorry for not sharing your opinion. As I said it is a good and detailed copy but there are decisive details on both the hilt and ricasso that clerarly show the differences. Best, Michael

7th April 2012, 01:35 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	I cannot see it. m