Takouba w XVII century European blade

Mauro · 27th March 2012, 02:33 PM

I agree with Jim and Iain that the blade is XVII to XVIII century but may be somebody would be able to add some more information on this type of blade. Usually after the XVII century, with the introduction of more modern armies, the blades changed their style and became more standardized. This is, to my knowledge, an old style blade. Regarding the letters V.Danv I am not sure they are incongruent because the only capitol letter is the D and ,may be, the first V. V could indicate the name and D the first letter of the surname. Such surnames Danv…. are very rare in Italian names and I would say are more common in northern Europe from France, Austria, Belgium, Netherlands etc. May be it is only a speculation !! I am not able to say if the “globus cruciger” was applied in Africa or it was originally made in Europe. I would favour this latter hypothesis because of the similarities of the engraving. I add some similar marks reported in Morel (1943) and in Lhote 1954 and attributed to different parts of Europe. The maker mark in the takouba is slightly different but I would say in the same “family”. Is anyone able to tell me the significance of the green color that in this takouba is found inside the petals ? It is also found in many scabbards of the Tuareg, Hausa and also Mandingo knives and swords.

Iain · 27th March 2012, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mauro

I agree with Jim and Iain that the blade is XVII to XVIII century but may be somebody would be able to add some more information on this type of blade. Usually after the XVII century, with the introduction of more modern armies, the blades changed their style and became more standardized. This is, to my knowledge, an old style blade. Regarding the letters V.Danv I am not sure they are incongruent because the only capitol letter is the D and ,may be, the first V. V could indicate the name and D the first letter of the surname. Such surnames Danv…. are very rare in Italian names and I would say are more common in northern Europe from France, Austria, Belgium, Netherlands etc. May be it is only a speculation !! I am not able to say if the “globus cruciger” was applied in Africa or it was originally made in Europe. I would favour this latter hypothesis because of the similarities of the engraving. I add some similar marks reported in Morel (1943) and in Lhote 1954 and attributed to different parts of Europe. The maker mark in the takouba is slightly different but I would say in the same “family”. Is anyone able to tell me the significance of the green color that in this takouba is found inside the petals ? It is also found in many scabbards of the Tuareg, Hausa and also Mandingo knives and swords.

Hi Mauro, I see no reason why it could be 17th century, I simply don't know enough about backsword blades to say so I tend to be more cautious.

I don't recall seeing anything with such a pronounced ricasso block on early backswords, but I have to admit I have not studied the sword type closely so probably there are such features on earlier blades as well.

I would say Danv is not a common name anywhere I'm aware of and some Googling makes it look almost nonexistent! The lettering is odd to me because of the mix of upper and lower case. By the 17th century upper and lower case letters were established and to have the 'a' in lower case and the then 'n' in upper case is quite odd. If this was a stamp applied for an owner in Europe, I would except someone with the money to own the sword, to have the ability to go to a shop with the right stet of stamps for the letters!

With the tree of life/globe motif, it is odd in that I have never seen it with the crossing line inside the globe curved... it is always straight. Again a strange feature if it was done in a workshop in Europe I think.

Green or azegzaw should have fairly standard symbolism in Tuareg culture I think. It can represent fertile land I think. For swords I'm not aware of a specific symbolism though.

Mauro · 27th March 2012, 10:00 PM

I did not explained myself properly. I suggested that D'Anv could be an abbreviation for D'Anville, D'Anverse, etc. but it simply a speculation. Thanks Iain for a good explanation of the use of the green colour in the sword of the people of the desert. Rehgarding the type of blade for sure Jim has much more experience than me. After to have posted the "globus cruciger" I searched in the forum and I found a long discussion on these maker marks. Sorry people if I did not check before

Iain · 27th March 2012, 10:19 PM

Hi Mauro, as an abbreviation it could make more sense for sure. But I still find the lettering odd for the period and I would expect an engraving (not stamps) in the case of a sword owner.

If it's a maker's stamp then I have good hopes we can find some record as other swords with the stamp should exist.

Maybe some of the more specialized European collectors can help. I will send you a PM.

Martin Lubojacky · 28th March 2012, 07:20 AM

Hi Mauro,
if I am not mistaken, what I call "imperial pome" (English is not my native language) is what you called and posted as "similar marks" reported in Morel (1943) and Lhote (1954). It used to be used as a symbol of royal power through the centuries (used also as mark by swordmakers subsequently), tohether with "mace". To be complete, V. could also mean "fifth", but it does not give sence...
Regards,
Martin

David R · 28th March 2012, 12:56 PM

I think the orb and cross was originaly a Eastern Roman (Byzantine) symbol of Christs supremacy over earthly things, and then adopted elsewhere and reinterpreted as it spread.
I might be misremembering this but I think in the Sudan it is referred to as the "drum". There is quite a nice series of posts about these reinterpretations dotted about the kaskara and takouba threads.

27th March 2012, 02:33 PM	#1
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	I agree with Jim and Iain that the blade is XVII to XVIII century but may be somebody would be able to add some more information on this type of blade. Usually after the XVII century, with the introduction of more modern armies, the blades changed their style and became more standardized. This is, to my knowledge, an old style blade. Regarding the letters V.Danv I am not sure they are incongruent because the only capitol letter is the D and ,may be, the first V. V could indicate the name and D the first letter of the surname. Such surnames Danv…. are very rare in Italian names and I would say are more common in northern Europe from France, Austria, Belgium, Netherlands etc. May be it is only a speculation !! I am not able to say if the “globus cruciger” was applied in Africa or it was originally made in Europe. I would favour this latter hypothesis because of the similarities of the engraving. I add some similar marks reported in Morel (1943) and in Lhote 1954 and attributed to different parts of Europe. The maker mark in the takouba is slightly different but I would say in the same “family”. Is anyone able to tell me the significance of the green color that in this takouba is found inside the petals ? It is also found in many scabbards of the Tuareg, Hausa and also Mandingo knives and swords. Attached Images

27th March 2012, 10:00 PM	#3
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	I did not explained myself properly. I suggested that D'Anv could be an abbreviation for D'Anville, D'Anverse, etc. but it simply a speculation. Thanks Iain for a good explanation of the use of the green colour in the sword of the people of the desert. Rehgarding the type of blade for sure Jim has much more experience than me. After to have posted the "globus cruciger" I searched in the forum and I found a long discussion on these maker marks. Sorry people if I did not check before

27th March 2012, 10:19 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Mauro, as an abbreviation it could make more sense for sure. But I still find the lettering odd for the period and I would expect an engraving (not stamps) in the case of a sword owner. If it's a maker's stamp then I have good hopes we can find some record as other swords with the stamp should exist. Maybe some of the more specialized European collectors can help. I will send you a PM.

28th March 2012, 07:20 AM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Hi Mauro, if I am not mistaken, what I call "imperial pome" (English is not my native language) is what you called and posted as "similar marks" reported in Morel (1943) and Lhote (1954). It used to be used as a symbol of royal power through the centuries (used also as mark by swordmakers subsequently), tohether with "mace". To be complete, V. could also mean "fifth", but it does not give sence... Regards, Martin

28th March 2012, 12:56 PM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	I think the orb and cross was originaly a Eastern Roman (Byzantine) symbol of Christs supremacy over earthly things, and then adopted elsewhere and reinterpreted as it spread. I might be misremembering this but I think in the Sudan it is referred to as the "drum". There is quite a nice series of posts about these reinterpretations dotted about the kaskara and takouba threads.