Two handed swords

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

My email is: sabatier.jm1@libertysurf.fr

I have seen the historismus katzbalger you are referring to, for sale at Hermann Historica. Indeed, they look clearly similar at first glance. When looking more closely, they are still different (blade shape, markings and their positioning on blade, hilt and top of pommel).

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi All,

For information, Mr. Ton Bolk (from Bolk Fine Antique Firearms and Armor, the Netherlands) is 100% sure this katzbalger is actually 16th century). He strongly stands on it.

Interestingly, I sent today high resolution pics to Mr. Gilbert Putterie (& Yvon Leyssens) from Magazin Royal (Belgium), who sell Antique Swords, Firearms and Armor from the medieval and renaissance period (with 30 years experience in field; they also represent Czerny's auctioneers). He said the katzbalger is clearly 16th century (metal, patina, construction, etc.)

Hope this helps,

jm

[Matchlock]

Hi Jm,

I'm sad to say it does not help at all.
We are talking about dealers, after all.
Just for fun: try returning your item to Mr. Bolk or selling it to whoever you choose ...

Anyway, I sent you what I collected concerning our topic. More to follow when the respective upcoming sales will be over.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Ok. Thanks Michael.

Would you like to purchase it (if you give me big money, it is yours ) ?

[Matchlock]

Hi Jean-Marc,

Sorry but I only collect earliest firerams and accouterments.

Does this mean I finally managed to convince you?

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Dear Michael,

Thanks so much for providing me with the pics on historismus katzbalgers that are for sale in an upcoming auction of Hermann Historica (I have had already seen them because they were previously emailed to me by Mr. Ton Bolk to show me how they were different from my katzbalger !). Frankly, I actually find them quite different -at various levels- from my katzbalger, as highlighted to Mr. Ton Bolk, such that the information is not convincing at all. I do think it is a 16th century katzbalger. I thank you because I appreciate your help and efforts on this thread.

My best,

jm

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jean-Marc S.

Hello,

My email is: sabatier.jm1@libertysurf.fr

I have seen the historismus katzbalger you are referring to, for sale at Hermann Historica. Indeed, they look clearly similar at first glance. When looking more closely, they are still different (blade shape, markings and their positioning on blade, hilt and top of pommel).

jm

Hi Jean-Marc,

if you look at the Hermann-Historica katzbalger, the hilt is identical to yours.

The grip is the same (the tang-button is a separate small part and not belonging to any hilt) the s-shaped parrier guard is similar, even the decoration on this guard is the same. a pattern of 2 small incisions and 1 wide notch, only on the outside of the guard!!!which in itself hardly occurs
on katzbalger guards.

It is clear that Both of them have been produced in the same workshop.
The blades are probably authentic 16thc with subsequent/later engravings and subsequent damage. Actually it looks to me that somebody composed the katzbalgers from old and new parts.

If the katzbalger #2394 of Hermann-Historica is indeed historism or even later, then yours is most likely too. regardless of what various dealers on the basis of the photographs claim.
BTW have they recieved the complete information including the link of the Hermann-Historica katzbalger of sale of 64 lot 2394?
This could otherwise be retroactively mailed, I expect them to adjust the valuation on the basis of the above.

However it would probably be better if you can mail the 5mb pictures for valuation to Hermann-Historica direct.This certainly gives more clarity so why not do it ?


another track which can be successful, is to the trace the provenance.
From who's collection did it arise, where and when has this collector bought it.
Katzbalgers without verifiable provenance that have been recently popping up in the market are in advance suspicious.


your twohanders in this thread really are exceptionally beautiful so is the armor, but with this katzbalger I have serious concerns.

best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Thanks for the details and your opinon Cornelistromp.

[Matchlock]

This item fetched the unbelievably high price of 10,000 euro plus commission at a South German auction.

It is a good copy of a 1530's style (Ottheinrich type) Katzbalger but all stylistic and decorative elements are overexaggerated, which is characteristic of a sumptuous Historismus piece.
The blade is struck with an imitation of a Brescian eye mark which however is located too high up for a genuine piece, just below the quillons. The etching on the blade again is typical of the Historismus period, showing a warrior all'antica.
With an overall length of only 85 cm the sword is also too short; genuine Katzbalgers are usually a bit over 90 cm long provided that they have not been shortened at some later date.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

here I do not agree, this could well be a true katzbalger.
the blade looks at least good and authentic, both the position and the shape of the stamped mark, the length but also the warrior engraving probably of ABONIS and HIPORIS do look ok... 16th century.
I know at least 3 original 16th century swords with similar warrior engraving. swords from the 19th century with this type of engraving are unknown to me, but this does not mean that they don't exist.
For similar example of those warriors see Hermann Historica sale 64 lot 2312.


than the hilt, a similar, well almost indentical checked pattern at the s-guard with latten/brass can be seen on the katzbalger nr 95 published in Europaische Hieb UND Stich Waffen, Mueller, Koelling p.189. The grip is less convincing but this could be a later replacement or restoration.

best,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

Sorry for not sharing your opinion.

As I said it is a good and detailed copy but there are decisive details on both the hilt and ricasso that clerarly show the differences.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

of course it is good to disagree sometimes and besides Michael you can always adjust your opinion later
here a magnificent 19th century (16thC style) katzbalger with good ricasso style characteristics. same mark as the 19thC katzbalger that you mailed me

best,