Takouba w XVII century European blade

Iain · 24th March 2012, 08:41 PM

Hi Mauro, I'm glad to see you posted this interesting sword finally!

I think it's a good discussion piece. I will leave comments about the blade for later, I am interested in what some of our other members will think about it. It might also be a good idea to post it to the European forum?

I actually think the sword is in not bad condition and the hilt is really outstanding. The 'rain guard' like feature is the first one I have seen on a takouba, so something pretty unique I think. The condition of the hilt also gives a nice view of how these are constructed, with the cloth padding and colors.

This is a very well built sword it seems, I have a few which also give me this sense and have strong, heavy iron guards and pommels.

I will write more later when you can put the pictures back up.

Mauro · 24th March 2012, 10:39 PM

Hi Iain, you are right and I shall post it also on the European blade section. Now we see what the forum says

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th March 2012, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mauro

Hi Iain, you are right and I shall post it also on the European blade section. Now we see what the forum says

Salaams Mauro~ Great sword! I have compared it around the forum library to others mainly from Iain and having been over the blade marks registry of Professor Jim and up and down the web to search for V Dan but not much luck.

Would you say that the blade mark V DAN is original ? ( I think so) but that the other mark which looks like a stylised tree of life has been modified and may be either part original and part altered locally. It looks like a local attempt at the Greek Cross/Coptic Cross similar in basic structure to library examples but in almost 3 dimensions since it is out of vertical alignment.X..and without the surrounding circle. The pot from which the apparent tree eminates looks like an altered moon shape altered to a round shape; see drawing below with modifications.

On passing, and nothing to do with this sword, I discovered the old Hausa letter G is a cross with orb beneath it.

Anyway this looks like (always a dangerous situation) a European blade locally adorned / altered in the blade mark.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 26th March 2012, 11:43 PM

A really interesting example, and I am in accord with most of the great observations here. This to me seems a late 17th into 18th century backsword blade, European of course. The marking are remarkably faithful to characteristic European types, but curious.

The 'globus cruciger' or cross and orb was widely popular as a talismanic device used with names, inscriptions and phrases. These letters seem similar to these kinds of additions to blades, and when in grouping that does not form an apparant word or name are usually acrostics. As far as I can determine there is not another listed which might explain this one, and the letters seem to be incongruent in form and in case, with a miniscule 'a'. The marking or device among the letters is inconsistant with these acrostics as well.

I am inclined to think these marks are added by a merchant in one of the entry centers where imports were dispersed to caravans, and who was familiar with these kinds of marks on European blades. The backsword blade was atypical for Tuareg takoubas, but in looking at the decoration, the four petal floral device resembles motif seen more to West Africa (Ive seen it on Sierra Leone daggers, and of course others I cant recall offhand). The 'rainguard' extension is also as noted, reminiscent of European type elements, as well as the bolsters (adabal) on the forte in line with the guard on some takouba.

Just my thoughts here, and looking forward to further ideas.

All the best,
Jim

Iain · 27th March 2012, 08:43 AM

So as Mauro already knows I would agree on 18th century backsword with the second edge locally sharpened.

The blade marks were applied at the same time in my opinion and I would defer to Jim's overall opinion on them.

Turning to the hilt, the four petal design is in fact found on most brass hilted takouba, both Tuareg and Hausa. See attached.

For me the features like the "rain guards" make this a truly unusual example of a takouba and I would be proud to own it myself. Congratulations again to Mauro!

Martin Lubojacky · 27th March 2012, 11:04 AM

I also agree the blade is probably from 18th century backsword (French ??). As far as four petal design, it is true - from Sierra Leone through Bidda arm daggers to Berber brass bracelets (e.g. in Djebel Nafusa near Tripolis). I also saw them engraved on the sheaths of long and simple yatagans I found on the Djerba Island (Tunisia).
Very probably it is a fantasy - but couldn´t the mark on the blade locally develop from the so called imperial "pome" ?
Regards,
Martin

Mauro · 27th March 2012, 02:33 PM

I agree with Jim and Iain that the blade is XVII to XVIII century but may be somebody would be able to add some more information on this type of blade. Usually after the XVII century, with the introduction of more modern armies, the blades changed their style and became more standardized. This is, to my knowledge, an old style blade. Regarding the letters V.Danv I am not sure they are incongruent because the only capitol letter is the D and ,may be, the first V. V could indicate the name and D the first letter of the surname. Such surnames Danv…. are very rare in Italian names and I would say are more common in northern Europe from France, Austria, Belgium, Netherlands etc. May be it is only a speculation !! I am not able to say if the “globus cruciger” was applied in Africa or it was originally made in Europe. I would favour this latter hypothesis because of the similarities of the engraving. I add some similar marks reported in Morel (1943) and in Lhote 1954 and attributed to different parts of Europe. The maker mark in the takouba is slightly different but I would say in the same “family”. Is anyone able to tell me the significance of the green color that in this takouba is found inside the petals ? It is also found in many scabbards of the Tuareg, Hausa and also Mandingo knives and swords.

Mauro · 27th March 2012, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

I also agree the blade is probably from 18th century backsword (French ??). As far as four petal design, it is true - from Sierra Leone through Bidda arm daggers to Berber brass bracelets (e.g. in Djebel Nafusa near Tripolis). I also saw them engraved on the sheaths of long and simple yatagans I found on the Djerba Island (Tunisia).
Very probably it is a fantasy - but couldn´t the mark on the blade locally develop from the so called imperial "pome" ?
Regards,
Martin

Sorry my ignorance Martin but how it looks like an "imperial pome" ?

27th March 2012, 08:43 AM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	So as Mauro already knows I would agree on 18th century backsword with the second edge locally sharpened. The blade marks were applied at the same time in my opinion and I would defer to Jim's overall opinion on them. Turning to the hilt, the four petal design is in fact found on most brass hilted takouba, both Tuareg and Hausa. See attached. For me the features like the "rain guards" make this a truly unusual example of a takouba and I would be proud to own it myself. Congratulations again to Mauro! Attached Images

27th March 2012, 02:33 PM	#7
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	I agree with Jim and Iain that the blade is XVII to XVIII century but may be somebody would be able to add some more information on this type of blade. Usually after the XVII century, with the introduction of more modern armies, the blades changed their style and became more standardized. This is, to my knowledge, an old style blade. Regarding the letters V.Danv I am not sure they are incongruent because the only capitol letter is the D and ,may be, the first V. V could indicate the name and D the first letter of the surname. Such surnames Danv…. are very rare in Italian names and I would say are more common in northern Europe from France, Austria, Belgium, Netherlands etc. May be it is only a speculation !! I am not able to say if the “globus cruciger” was applied in Africa or it was originally made in Europe. I would favour this latter hypothesis because of the similarities of the engraving. I add some similar marks reported in Morel (1943) and in Lhote 1954 and attributed to different parts of Europe. The maker mark in the takouba is slightly different but I would say in the same “family”. Is anyone able to tell me the significance of the green color that in this takouba is found inside the petals ? It is also found in many scabbards of the Tuareg, Hausa and also Mandingo knives and swords. Attached Images

24th March 2012, 08:41 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Mauro, I'm glad to see you posted this interesting sword finally! I think it's a good discussion piece. I will leave comments about the blade for later, I am interested in what some of our other members will think about it. It might also be a good idea to post it to the European forum? I actually think the sword is in not bad condition and the hilt is really outstanding. The 'rain guard' like feature is the first one I have seen on a takouba, so something pretty unique I think. The condition of the hilt also gives a nice view of how these are constructed, with the cloth padding and colors. This is a very well built sword it seems, I have a few which also give me this sense and have strong, heavy iron guards and pommels. I will write more later when you can put the pictures back up.

24th March 2012, 10:39 PM	#2
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	Hi Iain, you are right and I shall post it also on the European blade section. Now we see what the forum says

26th March 2012, 11:43 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	A really interesting example, and I am in accord with most of the great observations here. This to me seems a late 17th into 18th century backsword blade, European of course. The marking are remarkably faithful to characteristic European types, but curious. The 'globus cruciger' or cross and orb was widely popular as a talismanic device used with names, inscriptions and phrases. These letters seem similar to these kinds of additions to blades, and when in grouping that does not form an apparant word or name are usually acrostics. As far as I can determine there is not another listed which might explain this one, and the letters seem to be incongruent in form and in case, with a miniscule 'a'. The marking or device among the letters is inconsistant with these acrostics as well. I am inclined to think these marks are added by a merchant in one of the entry centers where imports were dispersed to caravans, and who was familiar with these kinds of marks on European blades. The backsword blade was atypical for Tuareg takoubas, but in looking at the decoration, the four petal floral device resembles motif seen more to West Africa (Ive seen it on Sierra Leone daggers, and of course others I cant recall offhand). The 'rainguard' extension is also as noted, reminiscent of European type elements, as well as the bolsters (adabal) on the forte in line with the guard on some takouba. Just my thoughts here, and looking forward to further ideas. All the best, Jim

27th March 2012, 11:04 AM	#6
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	I also agree the blade is probably from 18th century backsword (French ??). As far as four petal design, it is true - from Sierra Leone through Bidda arm daggers to Berber brass bracelets (e.g. in Djebel Nafusa near Tripolis). I also saw them engraved on the sheaths of long and simple yatagans I found on the Djerba Island (Tunisia). Very probably it is a fantasy - but couldn´t the mark on the blade locally develop from the so called imperial "pome" ? Regards, Martin