Two handed swords

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello all,

I discovered an interesting find (at least to me): when looking at the book entitled 'The Landsknechts' (Mens-at-arms series number 58, Douglas Miller and GA Embleton), I noticed that, facing the third quarter of coat-of-arms depicting the 'three moons' motif (which is found on katzbalger's blade), the fourth quarter of the same coat-of-arms shows the personal flag/standard of Georg Von Frundsberg (Lord of Midelheim), the father and supreme commander of Landsknechts !
Therefore, it appears clear that this particular 'three moons' motif should be somehow 'linked' to the Landsknechts...

jm

To Michael: for information, the etching ('Passau wolf' and 'three orbs and crosses' motifs) on katzbalger's blade is not light (the pics of poor quality do not actually render justice to etching).

[cornelistromp]

the third quarter of sachsen-lauenburg coat of arms are no moons but three water-lily leaves, standing for the County of Brehna! see picture count Friedrich.
the crossed swords indicate the Saxon office as Imperial Arch-Marshal meaning the Saxon privilege to elect a prince.
This weapon of "kurzschwerter"are widely spread among the German nobility.

Unfortunately the logic of your theory in the previous post escapes me completely.

Due to the average execution and workmanship, this katzbalger is not very convincing. it looks like there is not much support to find, to designate this katzbalger as original 16thC.

though I also incline strongly to a later 19thC reproduction, it can still be authentic.
if you can live with this that's fine, if you want more certainty, you can ask a specialist/authority in the known auction houses.
For example, Hermann Historica; Robert Weis or Nicholas McCullough
they have made an excellent cataloque describtion of the Karsten Klingbeil collection.

best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Thanks Cornelistromp for giving your opinion, that appears to have now evolved (and which is not mine).
In heraldry, the quarters of almost every coat-of-arms vary significantly over the years or decades. Accordingly, I found another shape for the same quarter, also resembling the 'three moons' motif but still different from the two presented here.

jm

[Matchlock]

A documentation of typical 19th-20th century Katzbalger copies similar to the one posted here in post 45 is available!

I do not wish to post them here so anybody interested please pm me and you will receive that documentation, including close-ups and current market prices!

Best,
m

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

According to the last post of Cornelistromp, I have sent yesterday a series of detailed pics (up to 5.5 Mo resolution each !) of my katzbalger to famous Andrew Garcia for expertise (Armor4Sale: Authentication and Valuations of Antique Arms and Armor, including a service of museum restorers). He just replies that, from the pics, this katzbalger is actually all 16th century
This opinion is shared by advised persons or experts in antique swords, such as Juan J. Perez (moderator at Sword Forum International), David Gray, Raymond Tort and Ton Bolk (Bolk Antiques, a leading specialist dealer in Europe of Fine Antique Arms and Armor). Of note, some of them have had the katzbalger in hands.

jm

[Matchlock]

Hi JM,

Would you be interested in reading the documentation on Historismus Katzbalgers I announced?

If so, please pm me and leave your email.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

Ok. Thanks. Please send it to my email address, as I cannot access your page due to a limited access account.

jm

[cornelistromp]

Hi Jean-Marc,

After seeing Michaels mail, which can not be published here in this thread because it is about a similar/same katzbalger as yours in a future auction, (it can be published after the Hermann Historica auction).
Iam unfortunately 100 percent sure that your katzbalger is a reproduction.
Iam very sorry for this information.

Best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Cornelistromp,

Are you referring to his posts such as the previous one mentioned below ?
If yes, this is not convincing at all.

'This 'Katzbalger' blade was shortened from a Tuareg sword (kaskara) and bears the characteristic crescent marks which were struck into the cold iron, in contrary to Northern European blades where the makers marks were always deeply stuck into the red-hot iron. The so-called 'wolf' and 'orb and cross' are just primitively and crudely scratched instead of cut with an engraver's gouge - nothing else! All original orb and cross marks are inlaid with yellow metal (line tausia).
In short, I am sorry to state that this is one of the most brutal forgeries I have ever seen ... my word on it! Return it as soon as possible.

Please study my thread on Katzbalgers and show me just one genuine sample with
- this kind of marks
- this kind of blade without the ricasso flutings!

Sorry but best,
Michael'

[Jean-Marc S.]

To Cornelistromp:

Or are you referring to Michael's previous posts I just found on this forum ?


Michael's post 1:
A very good Katzbalger, ca. 1500-10, retaining its original blackened hilt, the blade struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, overall length 118 cm (!).
Provenance: Sotheby's London, June 20, 1929 (800 USD), bought by Wiliam Randolph Hearst and sold again Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, Nov 27, 1961, lot 33 (estimate 2,500 SFr; I do not know what it went for).


Michael's post 2:
Could you please post an example of the Swedish P, Manuel, and give a date for the blade(s)?


Celtan's post (Manuel):
Most certainly, my good sir. Your wish is my command: c. Late 19th C. 1748 -1800s
: )
Manuel


Michael's post 3:
Hi Jim and Manuel,

First of all: thank you, Manuel, for sharing these good images. As I am in no way an expert in 18th/19th century items I am unable to decide on whether this P mark is related to that on the early 16th century Katzbalger or not. All I can say is that I do not believe in a relationship between the two.

If you have close look at the respective shapes of the letter P you will see the decisive difference between an early 16th century P (actually it is a minuscule p) and the same letter, only 200 years old.
I have managed to find a few examples of 15th to 16th century p minuscules although some of them are of rather poor quality. Still I hope that you can see my point. They are taken from 15th century manuscripts; the one showing two p minuscules one above the other is the mark of the Munich gunsmith Peter Peck which is found to be struck on the barrel of a ca. 1565 wheel-lock harquebus or long pistol.
Now that brings me to the important point that you made, Jim. Altough this is the case with Peter Peck's mark and the famous PGM mark attached ("Pegnitzer goss mich", Pegnitzer founded me) on early 16th century copper alloy cast haquebut and cannon barrels, the presence of a certain letter on a late medieval or early Renaissance weapon or on any item of arts and crafts does not necessarily mean that it is the maker's mark and the inital of his name. Often enough, e.g., we find the Gothic minuscules m on 500 year old caskets ond parts of armor where it usually stands for Mary, Mother of Jesus, or ihs meaning Jesus hominum salvator, Jesus Savior of Mankind. Another good example is, I think, the Gothic minuscule n on pieces of armor and firearm barrels where it is a town mark denoting that those items were made at Nuremberg. This kept in mind, the letter p on the Katzbalger blade might well stand for the Saints Peter or Paul - or it might be the maker's initial, or a town mark. Who knows? This is open to interpretation and makes such discussions worth while.
With all my best wishes,
Michael


Therefore, if Michael describes an actual 19th century katzbalger replica as being a 16th century original katzbalger, one might suggest that he will find an original 16th century katzbalger as being a 19th century katzbalger replica !

Am I right ???

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Dear Cornelistromp,

I know what is the clue -together with Michael- to identify with 'certainty' 19th century produced katzbalgers : the so-called 'pas d'ane' construction (stairs-like) of the hilt, a technique to work metal that did not exist in the 16th century but which existed in the 19th century and later on. This would be indeed actually a clue to formally identify later katzbalger replicas.
Importantly, you should be aware that the presence of some parallel lines along the groove of hilt does not always imply a 'pas d'ane' construction, and related later technology. I have carefully inspected under optical magnification the metal hilt of my katzbalger, especially focusing inside the grooves on both sides of hilt: the parallel lines that could be observed along the groove are NOT a 'pas d'ane' construction, but clearly hand-made file marks, that are more or less linear and regular, not continuous, more or less deep into the metal, depending on the part of groove you are looking at (orientation of lines sometimes left the groove itself further demonstrating unambigously it could NOT be a 'pas d'ane' construction !). These files marks -clearly identify as such- correspond to a hand-made finish of the hilt's groove with appropriate forgery instruments existing in the renaissance period.

Hope this would help in preventing of some mistakes regarding sword authentification,

jm

NB: To illustrate this, some parallel lines of hand-finish can be also seen in some pics showed in the new thread of Michael (see his period Saxon patrons) http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...573#post136573