Rare Mughal Dagger

Battara · 18th March 2012, 10:55 PM

WOW! Ugly stuff. And you can't tell very well from ebay pictures. Good to have this thread, thank you.

Jens Nordlunde · 18th March 2012, 11:19 PM

Hi Alex,
Thank you for bringing this up. I agree with you that not all know what kundan is, or how it was made, so your warning is well placed.
Jens

Stan S. · 19th March 2012, 01:28 AM

Any chance fo seeing pictures of similar but confirmed mughal period weapons for comparison?

ALEX · 19th March 2012, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

Any chance fo seeing pictures of similar but confirmed mughal period weapons for comparison?

Here are few examples of kundan technique...

ALEX · 19th March 2012, 09:15 AM

And here's 18th century nephrite jade handle with all jewels and gold removed, so you can see the original carvings before they were filled with all that bling:-)

ALEX · 19th March 2012, 09:22 AM

also, 19th C mughal handle with some kundan applied much later, likely in 20th C.

ALEX · 19th March 2012, 09:45 AM

since we're on a mughal subject - here are few handles in most common mughal horse forms. Just like with new kundan - one thing is when you're looking superficially or on blury pictures, but when you start comparing with authentic mughal, the difference becomes much clearer.

Battara · 19th March 2012, 08:43 PM

Yes seeing examples of quality differences is invaluable.

Atlantia · 19th March 2012, 09:27 AM

Excellent thread Alex.. Valuable information.

estcrh · 29th November 2015, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

Any chance fo seeing pictures of similar but confirmed mughal period weapons for comparison?

Here are a few examples from the Met Museum.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th November 2015, 12:34 PM

Ariel, I still think the one to the right in post no 10 is a nilgai, just like the one shown in post 18. See the text here.
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/...&tabname=label
Jens

estcrh · 29th November 2015, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ariel, I still think the one to the right in post no 10 is a nilgai, just like the one shown in post 18. See the text here.
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/...&tabname=label
Jens

The Blue Bull or the Nilgai (Boselaphus tragocamelus)

An antelope found only in India, the Blue Bull or the Nilgai is unlike antelope in its build. It has a body of horse, face of a cow with high withers and low rump.

Nilgai is found only in India from the foothills of Himalayas to the forest of Karnataka and from the dry forest of Rajasthan to the forest of West Bengal and Assam.

Shakethetrees · 29th November 2015, 04:33 PM

There's a lot of supposition re: this technique. One of the offsite posts got it right, though.

I think part of the problem is the use of translating software or not being fluent in the technical aspects of either or both languages.

Gold will NOT form a molecular bond with stone. And, for the purposes of this discussion, gold, if hammered onto another piece of gold of a similar karat, will not form a molecular bond between the two pieces. Any attachment would be purely mechanical. Think of two pieces of aluminum foil. Crumble them up together in a random, haphazard manner as when you're not thinking about it when you throw it away. The two pieces are pretty securely held together if squished together tightly. However if you very methodically, for whatever reason, decide you need to separate the two pieces, this can be done. Try it.

This is a mechanical bond. If a eutectic bond formed, there would be no separating the two.

A design is engraved into the hard stone object. The walls of the design are next undercut slightly.

The stones to be set must also have slightly sloping sides as all stones that are set have to have.

Gold, now cannot be "hyper purified". Period. Pure gold is 24 karat. There is no 24.5 or 25 karat.

Strips of 24 karat gold are drawn that have a rectangular cross section, the minor dimension should fill tightly the space between the precious stone and the matrix. The major dimension should stand proud approximately twice to three times the thickness of the minor dimension, leaving as small a gap where the two ends meet as possible. It is critical for these strips be annealed well. During the process used in the following paragraph the strips will become slightly springy due to work-hardening. The trick is to get everything in place as efficiently as possible and not to over work.

A steel chasing tool, which is similar to a small chisel but with a blunt rounded edge, is pressed to the gold and driven down with gentle blows of a light hammer. OR a tool known as a burnisher, which is a smooth, polished shape made from steel, agate, or haematite mounted securely in a wooden handle, is pressed forcibly downward causing the gold strip to deform and be forced to fill any undercuts and voids between the precious stone being inlaid and the design carved into the grip. The slight extra amount of gold that was left standing proud originally should roughly be figured to be slightly greater than the volume of the void. If during the process this is miscalculated, unless there's enough of an undercut, more gold cannot be just hammered on top of the gold in place to build it up. There has to be some undercuts to mechanically lock everything together.

One respondent mentions a eutectic bond forming without heat.

Nonsense.

Period.

Any bonding forming during this process is purely mechanical and can be easily undone with a pair of pliers, tweezers, or needles to remove the set stones.

With a bit of prep time and a clear schedule, this could be demonstrated.

19th March 2012, 09:15 AM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	And here's 18th century nephrite jade handle with all jewels and gold removed, so you can see the original carvings before they were filled with all that bling:-) Attached Images

19th March 2012, 09:22 AM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	also, 19th C mughal handle with some kundan applied much later, likely in 20th C. Attached Images

19th March 2012, 09:45 AM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Mughal handle comparison since we're on a mughal subject - here are few handles in most common mughal horse forms. Just like with new kundan - one thing is when you're looking superficially or on blury pictures, but when you start comparing with authentic mughal, the difference becomes much clearer. Attached Images

18th March 2012, 10:55 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	WOW! Ugly stuff. And you can't tell very well from ebay pictures. Good to have this thread, thank you.

18th March 2012, 11:19 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Alex, Thank you for bringing this up. I agree with you that not all know what kundan is, or how it was made, so your warning is well placed. Jens

19th March 2012, 01:28 AM	#3
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Any chance fo seeing pictures of similar but confirmed mughal period weapons for comparison?

19th March 2012, 08:43 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Yes seeing examples of quality differences is invaluable.

19th March 2012, 09:27 AM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Excellent thread Alex.. Valuable information.

29th November 2015, 12:34 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, I still think the one to the right in post no 10 is a nilgai, just like the one shown in post 18. See the text here. http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/...&tabname=label Jens

29th November 2015, 04:33 PM	#13
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	There's a lot of supposition re: this technique. One of the offsite posts got it right, though. I think part of the problem is the use of translating software or not being fluent in the technical aspects of either or both languages. Gold will NOT form a molecular bond with stone. And, for the purposes of this discussion, gold, if hammered onto another piece of gold of a similar karat, will not form a molecular bond between the two pieces. Any attachment would be purely mechanical. Think of two pieces of aluminum foil. Crumble them up together in a random, haphazard manner as when you're not thinking about it when you throw it away. The two pieces are pretty securely held together if squished together tightly. However if you very methodically, for whatever reason, decide you need to separate the two pieces, this can be done. Try it. This is a mechanical bond. If a eutectic bond formed, there would be no separating the two. A design is engraved into the hard stone object. The walls of the design are next undercut slightly. The stones to be set must also have slightly sloping sides as all stones that are set have to have. Gold, now cannot be "hyper purified". Period. Pure gold is 24 karat. There is no 24.5 or 25 karat. Strips of 24 karat gold are drawn that have a rectangular cross section, the minor dimension should fill tightly the space between the precious stone and the matrix. The major dimension should stand proud approximately twice to three times the thickness of the minor dimension, leaving as small a gap where the two ends meet as possible. It is critical for these strips be annealed well. During the process used in the following paragraph the strips will become slightly springy due to work-hardening. The trick is to get everything in place as efficiently as possible and not to over work. A steel chasing tool, which is similar to a small chisel but with a blunt rounded edge, is pressed to the gold and driven down with gentle blows of a light hammer. OR a tool known as a burnisher, which is a smooth, polished shape made from steel, agate, or haematite mounted securely in a wooden handle, is pressed forcibly downward causing the gold strip to deform and be forced to fill any undercuts and voids between the precious stone being inlaid and the design carved into the grip. The slight extra amount of gold that was left standing proud originally should roughly be figured to be slightly greater than the volume of the void. If during the process this is miscalculated, unless there's enough of an undercut, more gold cannot be just hammered on top of the gold in place to build it up. There has to be some undercuts to mechanically lock everything together. One respondent mentions a eutectic bond forming without heat. Nonsense. Period. Any bonding forming during this process is purely mechanical and can be easily undone with a pair of pliers, tweezers, or needles to remove the set stones. With a bit of prep time and a clear schedule, this could be demonstrated.