Kattara for comments

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Ibrahiim, excellent points and I think that the positions and observations are presenting great material to be considered as we move forward. We are still far from conclusions but the progress is great.

On the schiavona, there were of course variants, and while most I have seen were backswords, but some were broadswords. It is worthy of note that the schiavona itself was around before the hilt became fully developed, and again this is a term which became associated primarily with the baskethilt form. We know that anumber of blades were coming in from Italy into the Red Sea trade, but I think that these were powerfully usurped by the German blades in the 19th century.

I have been looking into Yucel in trying to understand more on the Abbasid swords which are believed to be the ancestor of the old Omani sayf, and found that the earliest surviving example of these is one attributed to Caliph Mu'awiya ibn Abi Sufyan, the first Umayyad caliph (reigned 41-60 hijral, 661-680 AD). This blade is shown in plate 24, described p.56, but the illustrations are not very good.

On p.54, it is noted that virtually nothing is known about the nature of Abbasid and Umayyad hilts, quillon blocks and scabbards, but of course the blades are represented among the swords in Istanbul. The blades were without fullers, and thicken at the center, which would I believe approximate the 'wing shape' you describe, and I think may be described as lenticular.

I am curious about the Omani old sayf, and whether there are examples of these hilts which are being suggested to have remained in situ since the 751AD date and if possibly somewhere in Oman. I cannot remember in earlier discussion whether we had determined if an Abbasid hilt had been located which conforms to the old Omani sayf hilt, naturally subsequent to Yucels's outstanding work in 2001. He unfortunately passed away that same year.

As always, adding material to be considered in the course of our discussions here.

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you very much Ibrahiim, excellent points and I think that the positions and observations are presenting great material to be considered as we move forward. We are still far from conclusions but the progress is great.

On the schiavona, there were of course variants, and while most I have seen were backswords, but some were broadswords. It is worthy of note that the schiavona itself was around before the hilt became fully developed, and again this is a term which became associated primarily with the baskethilt form. We know that anumber of blades were coming in from Italy into the Red Sea trade, but I think that these were powerfully usurped by the German blades in the 19th century.

I have been looking into Yucel in trying to understand more on the Abbasid swords which are believed to be the ancestor of the old Omani sayf, and found that the earliest surviving example of these is one attributed to Caliph Mu'awiya ibn Abi Sufyan, the first Umayyad caliph (reigned 41-60 hijral, 661-680 AD). This blade is shown in plate 24, described p.56, but the illustrations are not very good.

On p.54, it is noted that virtually nothing is known about the nature of Abbasid and Umayyad hilts, quillon blocks and scabbards, but of course the blades are represented among the swords in Istanbul. The blades were without fullers, and thicken at the center, which would I believe approximate the 'wing shape' you describe, and I think may be described as lenticular.

I am curious about the Omani old sayf, and whether there are examples of these hilts which are being suggested to have remained in situ since the 751AD date and if possibly somewhere in Oman. I cannot remember in earlier discussion whether we had determined if an Abbasid hilt had been located which conforms to the old Omani sayf hilt, naturally subsequent to Yucels's outstanding work in 2001. He unfortunately passed away that same year.

As always, adding material to be considered in the course of our discussions here.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ You may recall the #5 post on this thread where a Topkapi sword (which may on reflection be either in the Topkapi or the Istanbul military museaum or both and being Abbasid was compared favourably with the Old Omani Battlesword in 11 categories including similarities in hilt construction but certainly not with the Islamic Arched Pommel.. nor the turned down quillons but almost everything else including blade profile.
It is key to the early Ibn Julanda theory backed by the Funoon combined with the in situ frozen in time in Oman concept that the entire weapon emerges. In fact I chose the 751 date as an honorary point since it is likely that the weapon emerged sometime before and copied largely from the Abassiid and the earlier date of 620 has been considered with the first Islamic movement however as Ibn Julanda was the first Ibathi Immam 751 has been selected bearing in mind the likelihood of the hilt being virtuslly or potentially heraldic in nature which in itself would rock the foundations of heraldic symbols which insist rather on shields as being the objects of transmition. Not only is the Pommel the shape of the Abbasiid Islamic Arch..(not to be confused by later arches nor later (Islamic)battle helmets which didn't exist in the mid 8th C) but the Minarette form is also reflected in the hilt on earlier examples. I have placed several of these in private collections with the dots on the blades ... both in the blade tip and at the throat in single dots and others with a tripple dot at the riccaso.

The Umayyis swords and hilts are indeed difficult to trace as none exist.. as far as I know.

Work is ongoing with the term Sayf Yamaani though I get blank looks when I speak about the place near Iski, Nizwa and being the ancient old quarter called "Yemen" and likely to have been populated in about the 1st to 3rdC ad from the broken dam in The Yemen called Mehrib Dam and its corresponding exodus of many tribes to Oman (for Nizwa in particular).

We also know that the entire area of Yemen southern Oman and parts of Africa at the horn were called an as one throw away term The Yemen and the African Coast at the horn is often called the Yemen on old maps..

Nizwa region fits the bill because of its prowess in Copper and Iron smelting and because of the early bellows technique employed there. Of course that is not proven and other places may be responsible like Hadramaut or even Sri Lanka with advanced blown air furnaces in use early.

The very nature of an isolated religious grouping like Ibathism underscores the peculiar syndrome of this weapons isolation. Except for a small outpost of the same sect in North Africa the country was quite its own citadel and standing alone. After all; the point of the Abbasiid garrisons sent from Iraq was to primarily suppress the Omanis in that regard and the later raids by the Wahhabis was similarly inspired ( in 1865 they sacked Sur) though eventually that subsided though not without a fight. Coincidentally the seat of the Ibathi sects power remained at Nizwa down the ages.. making the conclusion perhaps easy to draw on the Sayf Yamaanis birthplace.. However, that is, as yet not proven.

One area neglected so far is the huge influence exerted by merchants from the largest influential group... India. In the Indian ocean they were called Banyans and if trade were to be conducted it was the Banyans doing it, often without the see saw politics and nonsense between Oman, France and Britain which at the best of times was farcical.


I have just read an extraordinary article on www.jrpeterson.net which has some very interesting background on outsider groups integrating eventually into Oman and snippets on Zuttoot, Khojas, Baluchi and other important fringe set ups with mention of sword manufacturing in one anecdote..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Reference note for Forum library.
From http://www.thenational.ae/news/.../w...g-trade-in-rak
Anecdotal Evidence; The Omani Sayf; Dancing Swords Only.

Quote "RAS AL KHAIMAH // In the markets of the old town, swords are easily available and readily sold to mountain tribesmen.

"All Shehhi [tribesmen] should have swords," said Azziz al Shehhi, 22. "It's nice for dancing, not for fighting. These are for gifts, for celebrations."
Mr al Shehhi owns four swords, four traditional knives and two rifles that belonged to his father. But the party favourite was always the sword, an essential for any mountain celebration, he said.

Strong swordsmanship is the mark of a good wedding for mountain tribes like the Shehhu and Habus. Swords are not raised in combat, but thrown metres in the air and then caught.

The swords are forged in the workshops of the old RAK market, many of which have operated for more than three decades.
Shopkeepers must be licensed to sell swords, but are not required to keep records of how many they sell or to whom.
They make them according to demand. Some months they may sell only one or two, and other months they will sell dozens, especially in the summer wedding season.

Swords can be bought in glass cases as gifts and are a traditional reward at sporting events such as camel races. More often they are sold as an accessory for weddings, along with the canes and the yerz, a tribal axe.
Swords are sold blunt so men can catch them while dancing, but can be easily sharpened. Honing usually comes at the behest of elders, who want swords sharpened to a fine edge to honour their forefathers.
Zahee Ahmed, 28, of Pakistan, sells to tribesmen, sheikhs and tourists, as well as to shops in Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah. He said he had yet to hear of any case of swords being used as a weapon. "It's not dangerous," said Mr Ahmed. "We make them for celebration, not for killing. This is not for fighting, it is only for culture. The man is crazy if he will fight."
There is no age requirement on who can buy a sword, but some stores will only sell to Emiratis.

For many years, bargain hunters would often skip the markets of old RAK and buy from the family of Charchambi Daad Mohammed, a Baluchi axe and sword maker who crafted the weapons in his house.
Until last year, he roamed the streets of the Nakheel market with a bundle of swords and axes under his arm to be sold to whoever had the cash.
The swords business got a boost last December after Fujairah's first annual Al Saif Traditional Sword Competition, in which TV viewers and audience members voted by SMS for their favourite sword dancer.
RAK swordsmiths reported a sharp rise in demand for a month afterwards". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.