Article: Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars

Mare Rosu · 27th December 2004, 12:10 PM

RADU,

Let me be the first of many to thank you for this history lesson!
Where in the world do you get this information? The time and energy to just post this information is mind boggling.
Regardless, it is to me a great lesson in history, my learning curve is moving up, thanks to you sir.

Wolviex With a friend like Radu you cannot go wrong. Even as a curator in a great museum you just got a lesson in history on the curve sword.

Gene

Rivkin · 27th December 2004, 03:36 PM

Thanx a lot ! Very informative and like teenage girls are saying - "it's like totally cool" !

1. Circassian-Tataric scimitar - wow, it's really an interesting connection. The thing I don't understand however is that the peak of Circassian nomady belongs afaik to the peak of Khazarian and may be early Kipchaq domination, and certainly predates the formation of Tatarian conglomerate - do you know why this particular term is being used ?

2. I thought that most of the hussar swords where adopted as such by Britain and Prussia well before the napoleonic wars ? Cocnerning making them fashionable, I think mameluk swords/mameluk guards where just as inspirational (for example the Marine sword).

Again, Thank you !

TVV · 27th December 2004, 05:48 PM

Great job Radu, just one minor note: I believe the curved sabre first reached Europe in the 7th or perhaps even the 6th century carried by the turkic tribes, migrating to Europe: Avars first, and then the Protobulgarians, as there are specimens dating to that time excavated in nowadays Bulgaria and Hungary, and I would assume in Romania too. Nevertheless, you are absolutely right that it is turkic in origin.

wolviex · 27th December 2004, 07:55 PM

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You !

Your reply on my thread about hussar sabre is ASTONISHING! You were worried you cannot repay me for that thread, but this is PRICELESS.

Being in shock I'll keep silence for a while, during I'll try to prepare more sensible reply.

P.S. Radu! Did you get my message "Great expactations..." about hussar sabre, I still see it as unconfirmed.

Radu Transylvanicus · 27th December 2004, 09:06 PM

Thank you all for such kind words and quick replies, I will try my best to send a note to all concerns or questions emerging :

Mare Rosu: Thank you for the praise and as far as Wolviex, he was rather help and inspiration

! Just like you with the sword of Stephen the Great, my brother !

TVV : Cheers for the nice feedback, remember this is pretty much just a study made by me now back to your reply I know that Magyars for example came as early as 5th century but the earliest scimitaric sabers I know belong to 9th century; makes perfect sense what you say that should be some earliear one but thats how far I got so far and looked mainly to teritorry of Ukraine, Ruthenia or Moldavia to find the earliest examples considering going on presumption that like migration they came north of the shores of Black Sea. Please bring photos, literature, source or theory if you know of something earliear

Wolviex : My dear friend, dont be too good to me, see if any faults and lets see where can we go with these ideas...
As far the szably copy after speaking with you I agreed and did not wanna bleed financialy for such stuff.
Do you have any pics of augustostowka , that my friend, I could not find any on any book in my library, even for the notion itself I hold you personally responsible for putting it in my head

P.S. I hope wolviexowka is fine and you had a good Christmas ...

Rivkin : The European scholars (mainly French and Russian) reffer to it as the “Tcherkesso-Tartar scimitar” with slight more geographic vs. ethnological emphasis, my friend .
Inspirational is great as long as its not pretty much copycat ( Modern curved cavalry sabre story vs. the USMC mamluke sword or The 1831 Pattern British General Officers Ivory Hilted Scimitar (fancy name isnt it,

you thought ,,Polish-Hungarian sword,, was a long name) hereby mentioned : http://www.mca-marines.org/Gazette/2...mcdougall.html and lets not forget they werent much meant for battle but rather parade while the ones in the article dodged anything from the Ottomans trying to conquer Vienna or helped Napoleon conquered Europe.
Yes, the Hussar sword were prior to Napoleon but like I mentioned in here ( quote ) : That is the beginning of the ,,epee a la Hussarde,, or Hussar style saber (photo 19) who was adopted quickly by all most powerful armies of Europe from Hungarian by Austrians then Prussian, French and British and ended up glorified by the Napoleonian Era wars (photo 20) and in the 18th century it ceased to be ,, Hungaro-Polish,, and it became the European curved saber hence its mainstream adoption as it started expanding west via the armies of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and its conflicts in the 17th century ...

wolviex · 27th December 2004, 11:34 PM

Radu!
It's midnight in Poland, so please let me give you only few minor notes to your article. Tomorrow, with a good luck and a little more time (I'm during flat repir and removal) I'll bring photo of Augustowka sabre and a few notes about "winged" hussars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Starting 13th century the Turko-Mongols were constantly raiding via the steppes of Ukraine in all Poland... [/I]

... and exactly not all but only south of Poland (mainly provinces of Little Poland and Silesia). The Monghols army (called in Poland Tartars) gained Krakow, but could't succesfully siege Krakow's church of St. Adalbert. Then they moved west to the Silesia, where were stopped by army of prince Henryk the Pious (1241 year). Polish prince was killed on battlefield but reduced Mongols army retreated from Poland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

sword inspired by the one their kings carried and named the style after him the main types being: (photo 12) "batorowka" after Stephen Báthory (having classic boot like hilt) [/I]

Of course during and after reign of king Batory, "classic" sabres were most popular, so it's not extraordinary that this were the sabres which mostly bearing Batory's name or bust on the blade. To be exact the sabres were very often rehilted, even in my museum should be a sabre with classic hussar closed hilt with Batorowka blade, and it's still Batorowka. So it is a blade with specific inscription what made a sabre Zygmuntowka, Batorowka etc, not a hilt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Worth mentioning is that up to 17th century (some parts even later) many cavalry trooper carried a secondary weapon, an oversized straight long sword named kontchar (a term that not 100% safe to use but scholars tend to nowadays) used to pierce chainmail and breech trough enemy lines [/I]

It's KONCERZ in Polish , estoc in English, I think (anyway this is the word used in Poland to described in English this sword). It was very long, up to 150 cm, carried under the left leg, attached under the saddle. Becouse it was very long, it wasn't possible to draw it up with one move, it was necessary to make two moves, catching the blade with the second one (o boy! I hope it's comprehensible with my English

)

Anyway, You did great job here, and I'll become jealous about frequency. Now, when I'm writing this, you've crossed a barrier of 100 viewers, in one day

. I tell you, I'll be jealous

Best regards

Jim McDougall · 28th December 2004, 02:01 AM

Radu,
Extremely colorful montage!!! and colorfully written text as well!
Seeing these wonderful photos brings back happy memories of reading in all of these books about the fantastic tales of dashing horsemen of Eastern Europe (your library seems most impressive!).You seem rightfully proud of your heritage and you have done a great job of presenting all this material.
I agree with the note that it is amazing that you can put together so much information and especially illustrations! I recognize so many of the illustrations but get frustrated when I can't find the source...a couple I did locate for future reference for the readers and I think it is important to note or caption these illustrations:
Photo B: is an officer of Bans Cavalry Regiment under Col.Nikolai Lodron, 1697
This appears in "Croatians in the Thirty Years War 1618-1648" by V.Vuksic & D.Fischer (Military Illustrated #63,Aug.1993). Obviously this antedates the period of the article but apparantly the illustration refers to a later event while costume remains standard.

* It is important to note that the Croatians and Hungarians often served together as mercenaries, especially in the 18th century for Austria and in the famed Pandour regiments.

Photo 23: A painting titled "Officer of the Imperial Guard Charging ,1812" by Theodore Gericault (1791-1824). Obviously a Napoleonic French officer and the original hangs in the Louvre. It is one of my favorite paintings, and a copy hangs in my den directly in front of me. It is to me one of the most exciting and quintessant cavalry paintings.

I know it would take a lot of room to add these notes to the illustrations but it would be very helpful and informative to what you have already completed.

***Thank you for noting my article on the Marine Corps mameluke sabres!!!

There has been considerable debate on the overall history of the development of the sabre and much of what exists remains speculative.However the period you focus on with the proficiency of Eastern European cavalry and thier direct influence on British and German cavalry at the end of the 18th century is extremely exciting and colorful, as you have well described. Rivkin's note that this influence did certainly predate the Napoleonic period is correct, with various sabres in use by some German states and the British M1788 sabres which precluded the M1796 sabres (considered the first regulation pattern).

* The schiavona actually more Balkan than specifically Eastern European, and evolved as a heavy straight sword with fully developed basket hilt used by Dalmatian mercenaries in the service of the Doge of Venice (the term loosely means Slavonic in that dialect).

* 'scimitar' is an early term for curved sabre that evolved from transliteration and does not actually refer to a distinct sword form, although it often appears in literature as a descriptive term (see Burton, "Book of the Sword" 1884, p.126. Burton allows use of the word, but in the Victorian period its use by writers was commonplace.

TVV's note on early arrival of curved sabres in Europe is also well placed ;with nomadic tribes especially Avars by 7th c. and these were known to the Franks as well with the curved sabre of Charlemagne. The more complete dynamics of the actual evolution of the curved blade is less clear, with Turkestan considered a likely region which may hold early evolution of these.

Another interesting resource for this topic is:
"Polish Sabres: Thier Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski
In "Art, Arms and Armour" Vol.I 1979-80, Ed. Robert Held, pp.221-237

Best regards,
Jim

fspic · 12th February 2012, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mare Rosu

RADU,

"...
Wolviex With a friend like Radu you cannot go wrong.

Gene

Yes, but what if he invites you over to see his swords and bites you on the neck?

fspic · 12th February 2012, 04:33 AM

I have two sabers which fall into the design type discussed here. One is a longer classic Polish/Hungarian/Turkish type with multiple fullers and a Polish wooden bird's head grip. The tip is more upswept blunt rather than pointed. By this time is rather thin from centuries of honing and polishing.

The other blade is close to the late classical Blucher type referenced above and shown as item 12. in one of the color and monochrome illustrations. However it has several trefoil dot stamps which are often found on German or Dutch blades of the 17th century and earlier. Also the half-moon jagged edge marks with stars. This mark is found on some swords made in India but whether it was copied from European style marking I don't know. There is a single broad fuller. The grip is a nice old closed knuckle guard type with fine broad flowery koftgari. How these two came together is anyone's guess given the age and exchange or modification of swords.

As regards the trefoil marks I do have a now straight and flat European blade said to be sixteenth century or older which the seller said was once a much wider blade with a fullered section ground off. It has an Indian tulwar grip of 17th century form. The blade does have a flexible "spring" to it which someone said confirms it is of likely German origin as Indians or anyone else in the region didn't produce blades with that characteristic.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 12th February 2012, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fspic

I have two sabers which fall into the design type discussed here. One is a longer classic Polish/Hungarian/Turkish type with multiple fullers and a Polish wooden bird's head grip. The tip is more upswept blunt rather than pointed. By this time is rather thin from centuries of honing and polishing.

The other blade is close to the late classical Blucher type referenced above and shown as item 12. in one of the color and monochrome illustrations. However it has several trefoil dot stamps which are often found on German or Dutch blades of the 17th century and earlier. Also the half-moon jagged edge marks with stars. This mark is found on some swords made in India but whether it was copied from European style marking I don't know. There is a single broad fuller. The grip is a nice old closed knuckle guard type with fine broad flowery koftgari. How these two came together is anyone's guess given the age and exchange or modification of swords.

As regards the trefoil marks I do have a now straight and flat European blade said to be sixteenth century or older which the seller said was once a much wider blade with a fullered section ground off. It has an Indian tulwar grip of 17th century form. The blade does have a flexible "spring" to it which someone said confirms it is of likely German origin as Indians or anyone else in the region didn't produce blades with that characteristic.

Salaams fspic ~ Great ! ... Please show us some pictures...

Shukran..
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

kronckew · 12th February 2012, 04:12 PM

interesting. i especially liked the bit about the estoc as a lance replacement.

the british 1908 and the american 1913 cavalry swords, the last issue swords designed for actual battle use, were pure thrusting weapons, specifically designed to have about the same reach as a lance. the curved sabres of the past were gone forever.

in the early stages of ww1, a british cavalry patrol equipped with said swords, met a german uhlan patrol equipped with lances in one of the last, if not THE last pure cavalry engagements with edged weapons. the germans were soundly defeated. this in part due to the germans being from a newly recruited and barely trained regiment. they of course were pursued by the british, who were stopped dead by a humble farmer's fence across the field. it was of three strands of barbed wire. a prophetic end to the cavalry charge. horses were of course used in the rest of ww1 for pulling wagons and artillery, and were used more successfully in the open middle east, but the day of the edged weapon as a primary cavalry arm were over.

there were persisant rumors of polish lancers attacking german armour while on horseback with lances in ww2. never happened. poles were not that dumb. the lancers did oppose the german armour but not in vain cavalry charges, they used their rifles and light machine guns & anti-tank weapons from cover like any sane person. sadly they were not enough. the horses and lances were parade items, much like the present day canadian mounties. there was, however a successful charge against german infantry, supported by machine guns, etc...

Polish Cavalry Charge ww2

horse were used extensively in ww2, mostly by the germans, again for supply wagons and artillery, but the innovation of the american jeep 4wd put paid to even that.

cavalry with lance, sword, sabre, or estoc is now the field of the collector and scholar, and no longer that of the military.

that is where we come in. keeping history living...

Rick · 13th February 2012, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams fspic ~ Great ! ... Please show us some pictures...

Shukran..
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Agree !

Please upload some pictures .

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2012, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fspic

Yes, but what if he invites you over to see his swords and bites you on the neck?

Cute

but these kinds of comments better placed on Facebook. Glad to see you move on to more useful material, and I too would like to see photos of your sabres.
By your description, the East European form and note on 'birds head' hilt, do you mean smooth pommel or trilobate 'karabela' form?
Good stuff on the 'Bluchersabel' which is indeed the Prussian M1811 interpretation of the British M1796 light cavalry sabre. Actually the production of these seem well placed as Solingen had already been supplying the British with blades for thier sabres from the 1788 patterns through the 1796 along with other blade types, and the implementation of the hilt was in league with other European forms of these times.

The 'trefoil' dot marks and the jagged half moon marks I would suppose to be the well known 'sickle marks' which evolved presumably from North Italy into trade entrepots widely, and were adopted by blade making centers in Styria, Hungary, Poland and of course Germany. They also became the 'gurda' in the blades of the Caucusus, also later widely exported.
These marks were indeed copied in degree in India, especially northern regions where they occur consistantly on the Afghan 'paluoar' form of sabre, but to the south many, if not most of the straight blades have these marks on the 'firangi' (foreign' ) blades. Again, later many blades received these type marks to emulate the much favored European blades marks.
As far as known, most of the Dutch blades came from Germany, however numbers of Solingen smiths went there to work. I am not aware of significant presence of these sickle marks on swords with Dutch provenance, however with trade blades there certainly may have been some. Most Dutch markings have varying other characteristics.
Well noted on the flexibility issue, and indeed India did have some issues regarding brittle nature of some of thier products, leading to the favor of the European blades.

Kronckew, well said!!!
The use of the lance in combat was indeed a skill which required considerable training, and ill trained troops using them were more of a liability than asset, often more dangerous to themselves and each other. In close quarters of course there were not only awkward obviously, but a completely useless encumbrance. The German lances (of hollow steel shafts rather than wood) were well over 10 feet long.
The M1913 'Patton' cavalry sword, while being declared one of the finest swords ever designed (obviously with nods to the British M1908) was never actually used in combat as far as recorded in references. The British M1908 swords were however used in the Middle East theater in WWI, where they were called 'Allenby' swords for the British commanding general.
One of the best accounts of these is in James Lunt's "Charge to Glory".

The old nonsense about Polish lancers charging German tanks with these was of course primarily German propoganda, and as noted, never actually happened. These cavalrymen, true to thier powerful heritage from the centuries of Polish lancers who had fought with outstanding valor did fight bravely against thier foe using the conventional weapons of the time.

There are many instances of cavalry charges said to be 'the last' up into WWII, where a British regiment I believe in Burma charged against emplaced Japanese units, however with dismal outcome due to machine gun fire. I have often spoken of the British brigadier who led one of the last mounted cavalry charges in India in 1931 on plains in Khyber regions, and who showed me the M1913 officers sword he carried.

The study of these weapons and events is indeed where we come in, and together we will preserve this valuable history.

Nicely done guys! and Ibrahiim, thank you so much for bringing this one back!!!

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 13th February 2012, 02:10 AM

I don't know, Jim; I have a very flexible fine grained wootz Indian sabre at hand here in the armory; almost a straight blade .

They were not all bad .

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2012, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I don't know, Jim; I have a very flexible fine grained wootz Indian sabre at hand here in the armory; almost a straight blade .

They were not all bad .

Good call Rick, and I hoped my comment didnt sound too 'inflexible'

(pun intended) by qualifying the word 'some' with regard to Indian blades. I hope I can find the reference concerning this dilemma, may have been either Pant or Elgood. There was a quote included regarding the Indian favor of 'firangi' blades resulting in the large volume of them coming into Indian regions which included the disdain for British blades claiming they were 'unfit to cut even butter with'. Apparantly whatever issues were at hand with Indian blades was resolved and actually it does seem that in most times they were held in extremely high esteem, especially in Arabia where the flex of a blade was a keenly observed feature. There are of course blades in India which indeed were even wrapped around ones body almost as a belt.

You have some great stuff in that 'armoury' of yours!!!

All the best,
Jim

27th December 2004, 12:10 PM	#1
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Most Magnificent!! *RADU, Let me be the first of many to thank you for this history lesson! Where in the world do you get this information? The time and energy to just post this information is mind boggling. Regardless, it is to me a great lesson in history, my learning curve is moving up, thanks to you sir. Wolviex With a friend like Radu you cannot go wrong. Even as a curator in a great museum you just got a lesson in history on the curve sword.* Gene Last edited by Mare Rosu; 27th December 2004 at 12:33 PM.

27th December 2004, 07:55 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you !!! Thank You! Thank You! Thank You ! Your reply on my thread about hussar sabre is ASTONISHING! You were worried you cannot repay me for that thread, but this is PRICELESS. Being in shock I'll keep silence for a while, during I'll try to prepare more sensible reply. P.S. Radu! Did you get my message "Great expactations..." about hussar sabre, I still see it as unconfirmed.

28th December 2004, 02:01 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	history of the sabre Radu, Extremely colorful montage!!! and colorfully written text as well! Seeing these wonderful photos brings back happy memories of reading in all of these books about the fantastic tales of dashing horsemen of Eastern Europe (your library seems most impressive!).You seem rightfully proud of your heritage and you have done a great job of presenting all this material. I agree with the note that it is amazing that you can put together so much information and especially illustrations! I recognize so many of the illustrations but get frustrated when I can't find the source...a couple I did locate for future reference for the readers and I think it is important to note or caption these illustrations: Photo B: is an officer of Bans Cavalry Regiment under Col.Nikolai Lodron, 1697 This appears in "Croatians in the Thirty Years War 1618-1648" by V.Vuksic & D.Fischer (Military Illustrated #63,Aug.1993). Obviously this antedates the period of the article but apparantly the illustration refers to a later event while costume remains standard. * It is important to note that the Croatians and Hungarians often served together as mercenaries, especially in the 18th century for Austria and in the famed Pandour regiments. Photo 23: A painting titled "Officer of the Imperial Guard Charging ,1812" by Theodore Gericault (1791-1824). Obviously a Napoleonic French officer and the original hangs in the Louvre. It is one of my favorite paintings, and a copy hangs in my den directly in front of me. It is to me one of the most exciting and quintessant cavalry paintings. I know it would take a lot of room to add these notes to the illustrations but it would be very helpful and informative to what you have already completed. **Thank you for noting my article on the Marine Corps mameluke sabres!!! There has been considerable debate on the overall history of the development of the sabre and much of what exists remains speculative.However the period you focus on with the proficiency of Eastern European cavalry and thier direct influence on British and German cavalry at the end of the 18th century is extremely exciting and colorful, as you have well described. Rivkin's note that this influence did certainly predate the Napoleonic period is correct, with various sabres in use by some German states and the British M1788 sabres which precluded the M1796 sabres (considered the first regulation pattern). The schiavona actually more Balkan than specifically Eastern European, and evolved as a heavy straight sword with fully developed basket hilt used by Dalmatian mercenaries in the service of the Doge of Venice (the term loosely means Slavonic in that dialect). * 'scimitar' is an early term for curved sabre that evolved from transliteration and does not actually refer to a distinct sword form, although it often appears in literature as a descriptive term (see Burton, "Book of the Sword" 1884, p.126. Burton allows use of the word, but in the Victorian period its use by writers was commonplace. TVV's note on early arrival of curved sabres in Europe is also well placed ;with nomadic tribes especially Avars by 7th c. and these were known to the Franks as well with the curved sabre of Charlemagne. The more complete dynamics of the actual evolution of the curved blade is less clear, with Turkestan considered a likely region which may hold early evolution of these. Another interesting resource for this topic is: "Polish Sabres: Thier Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski In "Art, Arms and Armour" Vol.I 1979-80, Ed. Robert Held, pp.221-237 Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 28th December 2004 at 02:38 AM.

12th February 2012, 04:12 PM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	interesting. i especially liked the bit about the estoc as a lance replacement. the british 1908 and the american 1913 cavalry swords, the last issue swords designed for actual battle use, were pure thrusting weapons, specifically designed to have about the same reach as a lance. the curved sabres of the past were gone forever. in the early stages of ww1, a british cavalry patrol equipped with said swords, met a german uhlan patrol equipped with lances in one of the last, if not THE last pure cavalry engagements with edged weapons. the germans were soundly defeated. this in part due to the germans being from a newly recruited and barely trained regiment. they of course were pursued by the british, who were stopped dead by a humble farmer's fence across the field. it was of three strands of barbed wire. a prophetic end to the cavalry charge. horses were of course used in the rest of ww1 for pulling wagons and artillery, and were used more successfully in the open middle east, but the day of the edged weapon as a primary cavalry arm were over. there were persisant rumors of polish lancers attacking german armour while on horseback with lances in ww2. never happened. poles were not that dumb. the lancers did oppose the german armour but not in vain cavalry charges, they used their rifles and light machine guns & anti-tank weapons from cover like any sane person. sadly they were not enough. the horses and lances were parade items, much like the present day canadian mounties. there was, however a successful charge against german infantry, supported by machine guns, etc... Polish Cavalry Charge ww2 horse were used extensively in ww2, mostly by the germans, again for supply wagons and artillery, but the innovation of the american jeep 4wd put paid to even that. cavalry with lance, sword, sabre, or estoc is now the field of the collector and scholar, and no longer that of the military. that is where we come in. keeping history living... Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 12th February 2012 at 04:49 PM.

13th February 2012, 02:10 AM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Flex I don't know, Jim; I have a very flexible fine grained wootz Indian sabre at hand here in the armory; almost a straight blade . They were not all bad .

27th December 2004, 03:36 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Thanx a lot ! Very informative and like teenage girls are saying - "it's like totally cool" ! 1. Circassian-Tataric scimitar - wow, it's really an interesting connection. The thing I don't understand however is that the peak of Circassian nomady belongs afaik to the peak of Khazarian and may be early Kipchaq domination, and certainly predates the formation of Tatarian conglomerate - do you know why this particular term is being used ? 2. I thought that most of the hussar swords where adopted as such by Britain and Prussia well before the napoleonic wars ? Cocnerning making them fashionable, I think mameluk swords/mameluk guards where just as inspirational (for example the Marine sword). Again, Thank you !

27th December 2004, 05:48 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Great job Radu, just one minor note: I believe the curved sabre first reached Europe in the 7th or perhaps even the 6th century carried by the turkic tribes, migrating to Europe: Avars first, and then the Protobulgarians, as there are specimens dating to that time excavated in nowadays Bulgaria and Hungary, and I would assume in Romania too. Nevertheless, you are absolutely right that it is turkic in origin.

27th December 2004, 09:06 PM	#5
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Thank you all for such kind words and quick replies, I will try my best to send a note to all concerns or questions emerging : Mare Rosu: Thank you for the praise and as far as Wolviex, he was rather help and inspiration ! Just like you with the sword of Stephen the Great, my brother ! TVV : Cheers for the nice feedback, remember this is pretty much just a study made by me now back to your reply I know that Magyars for example came as early as 5th century but the earliest scimitaric sabers I know belong to 9th century; makes perfect sense what you say that should be some earliear one but thats how far I got so far and looked mainly to teritorry of Ukraine, Ruthenia or Moldavia to find the earliest examples considering going on presumption that like migration they came north of the shores of Black Sea. Please bring photos, literature, source or theory if you know of something earliear Wolviex : My dear friend, dont be too good to me, see if any faults and lets see where can we go with these ideas... As far the szably copy after speaking with you I agreed and did not wanna bleed financialy for such stuff. Do you have any pics of augustostowka , that my friend, I could not find any on any book in my library, even for the notion itself I hold you personally responsible for putting it in my head P.S. I hope wolviexowka is fine and you had a good Christmas ... Rivkin : The European scholars (mainly French and Russian) reffer to it as the “Tcherkesso-Tartar scimitar” with slight more geographic vs. ethnological emphasis, my friend . Inspirational is great as long as its not pretty much copycat ( Modern curved cavalry sabre story vs. the USMC mamluke sword or The 1831 Pattern British General Officers Ivory Hilted Scimitar (fancy name isnt it, you thought ,,Polish-Hungarian sword,, was a long name) hereby mentioned : http://www.mca-marines.org/Gazette/2...mcdougall.html and lets not forget they werent much meant for battle but rather parade while the ones in the article dodged anything from the Ottomans trying to conquer Vienna or helped Napoleon conquered Europe. Yes, the Hussar sword were prior to Napoleon but like I mentioned in here ( quote ) : That is the beginning of the ,,epee a la Hussarde,, or Hussar style saber (photo 19) who was adopted quickly by all most powerful armies of Europe from Hungarian by Austrians then Prussian, French and British and ended up glorified by the Napoleonian Era wars (photo 20) and in the 18th century it ceased to be ,, Hungaro-Polish,, and it became the European curved saber hence its mainstream adoption as it started expanding west via the armies of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and its conflicts in the 17th century ...

12th February 2012, 04:33 AM	#9
fspic Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 27	I have two sabers which fall into the design type discussed here. One is a longer classic Polish/Hungarian/Turkish type with multiple fullers and a Polish wooden bird's head grip. The tip is more upswept blunt rather than pointed. By this time is rather thin from centuries of honing and polishing. The other blade is close to the late classical Blucher type referenced above and shown as item 12. in one of the color and monochrome illustrations. However it has several trefoil dot stamps which are often found on German or Dutch blades of the 17th century and earlier. Also the half-moon jagged edge marks with stars. This mark is found on some swords made in India but whether it was copied from European style marking I don't know. There is a single broad fuller. The grip is a nice old closed knuckle guard type with fine broad flowery koftgari. How these two came together is anyone's guess given the age and exchange or modification of swords. As regards the trefoil marks I do have a now straight and flat European blade said to be sixteenth century or older which the seller said was once a much wider blade with a fullered section ground off. It has an Indian tulwar grip of 17th century form. The blade does have a flexible "spring" to it which someone said confirms it is of likely German origin as Indians or anyone else in the region didn't produce blades with that characteristic.