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11th March 2012, 12:33 PM
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#1 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Olomouc
Posts: 1,719
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Hi Ibrahiim,
Yes I was actually thinking of the swords from posts #228 and 229. Specifically the two Old Style hilts on European blades. European blades are obviously known in the old mounts. (I'd be careful with that 751A.D. date still.. But I've said that more than a few times already!  ).I don't disagree with anything you've written regarding the new style mounts and Omani preferences for dance swords. My interest is still in the transitional phase between the two saif styles. Obviously the amount of reworking old blades into hilts for the last 50 years or so, makes things difficult to puzzle out. Good point about the primary weapons, actually if you recall a few pages back in this thread I suggested the rise of firearms probably lead to the dance style blades as the sword decreased in actual battlefield importance. Cheers, Iain Quote:
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11th March 2012, 06:39 PM
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#2 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Salaams Iain ~ I have the match dates of these weapons at # 228 and 229 from the Muttrah workshop owner and it is about 2000; only 12 years ago... They came as blades from Yemen. They roughly follow the Sayf Yamaani style in one case the centre sword whilst at top the long hilt is Solingen ...and done for a tourist ( I actually know the tourist owner!) The weak lower blade at reference is a possible contender as a replacement for the Omani Battlesword from European sources but is as yet unsubstantiated. At the same time I am aware of the weight of evidence that suggests the European trade Blade influx everywhere from the Museums through to respected volumes on Islamic Swords. It is like looking at UFOs ! Every one of the interloper blades falls short on fact. They are either fitted as tourist weapons as late as last week ! and have come down the red sea and been rehilted often in Muttrah sucking in blades from Yemen and sucking in tourists in the souk ! Having said that; should evidence of a Trade Blade appear I will be the first to publish the fact to forum... as yet ... nothing. Last week we had the copywright people in here and "lo and behold" Oman will stamp soon all Omani work from a date to be confirmed but that is hundreds of years too late years for this weapon and others though occasionally you get a signature on old Khanjars. There is one sword with a circular stamp that I can't decipher and I thought the Forum owner would have responded but to no avail as yet. I believe the centre of manufacture was Nizwa and its nearby town of Izki offers some clues as posted previously. Could it be that Sayf Yamaani = Izki Near Nizwa in the quarter called Yemen and predating Islam by about 400 years with that name. As you know; I view the fighting weapon and the dancing weapon quite differently and it is in the transitional period ( pure guesswork at this point) that things get interesting. Was it 1744 / 1799 the bracket of time in which the Busaidi dynasty took control or before or after? Was it Yaruuba; the previous dynasty? Is it neither and associated only with the Funoon and therefor the Ibaathi seat at Nizwa? When did the Old Battle Sword succumb or give over its possition in the Funoon to the new flexible Sayf wa Ters? At whatever date ... say circa 1750ad for argument sake (though its a guess) the design was approved for a non fighting pageantry sword. The Old Battle sword continued as a weapon but faded on the pageant side being superceded, however, it was adopted as an Iconic dress sword with the royal hilt as at thread...# 211... to date ! We know who instigated the Royal Hilt Khanjar and when so it is likely the two hilts happened together. They are virtually identical. Therefor we have the date of both the Royal Khanjar and the Omani Battle Swords Iconisation. The question arrises on replacement blades on the Omani Battle Swords (Sayf Yamaani) In the biggest collections of these weapons comprising between 20 and 30 weapons each ... there are no thin replacement blades of European nature. Rumour has it that a skinny quite useless blade appeared from Europe (17th C ?)... and this is born out by at least one collector who simply refused to have that type in his collection. I have pictured a peculiar couple of swords in Muscat one of which may be the style being talked about. Some replacement european blades look very meaty and as in the case of your German trade blade seem to fit the bill. As to accuracy/authenticity or if we are being duped?... I caution beware. The answers are still out there... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th March 2012 at 07:14 PM. |
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11th March 2012, 06:56 PM
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#3 | |
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Member
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Location: Olomouc
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11th March 2012, 07:22 PM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Salaams Iain ~ Yes I agree however it is a very nice sword ... They matched that very recently.  I would have that in my collection any day but it is an interloper. A great example of a fake match up. Classic ! It also has the passau wolf mark though these are commonly faked here. I reckon its some sort of European blade scooped up in the Yemen souks for Muttrah rehilt and sale ... Someone will walk away with what they think is a genuine Omani Battle Sword...It aint ! such is life.  Omani Battle Swords aren't flat.. moreover, they are a peculiar broad wing shape in cross section making them quite powerful weapons actually.. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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11th March 2012, 07:26 PM
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#5 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Olomouc
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I see now you edited your original post, interesting, that it's a recent match, that info wasn't included the first time you'd posted images of the sword so I'd assumed your impression was it was an old mount.
So just to clarify it's not only blades being mounted in new style hilts, but also the old style hilts as well.... Makes you wonder what they are taking the old hilt off of... Quote:
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11th March 2012, 08:11 PM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Salaams Iain; Oh yes absolutely...Sayf Yamaani. I was after a few hilt only items as I had some Old hilt parts but incomplete... The hilt is in two halves and often I come across half a hilt and as can be seen in the picture there is a half a hilt so they have the same problem... They had a few spare hilts a few months ago... and one you can see matched onto the triple fuller job... I rang them up following my post on the subject and asked when they did the work ... very recent was the reply. The more I delve into Schiavona blades the more I suspect that blade being a fit for some worked onto Omani long hilts masquerading as dancing swords.. See Schiavona for comments #9 last photo ; at the European forum. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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12th March 2012, 08:33 AM
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#7 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,453
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This continues to be a fascinating discussion, and Ibrahiim thank you for the information on the 'halab' blade designation.
I wanted to note with regard to the narrative quotes I included in my earlier posts from contact with Omani forces by Mr. Fraser. While his visit may have been brief, it would seem that details such as the mention of Solingen marks and the Andrea Ferara would not have been included if not actually seen. In a cursory observation, as far as I have seen, such specific details would not have been noted as the comparison to Highland broadswords alone would have sufficed. As I mentioned, I would suspect Mr. Fraser had first hand knowledge of these swords, and while clearly a presumption, it is worthy of note that his name is from a prominent Scottish clan. I am curious on the most commonly seen cross section on the old battle sayf yemani described as wing shape, would this mean lenticular? and presumably with fuller (s). I have been doing some research on the flexibility of the German blades and in "Reports on the Paris Universal Exhibition" (1867) Vol.4, pp.179-80 the 'Report on Portable Arms' by Capt. V.D.Majendie, R.A. notes: "...as however the flexibility of a blade depends after its quality, upon its transverse section and as Solingen exhibits swords which will bend almost around a mans body, it would seem as though all the flexibility that could possibly be desired can be obtained without any admixture of iron". It would seem that these Solingen blades, many of which were destined to many markets throughout Europe, reflect the flexible nature of the Solingen blades apparantly present at this time, probably before and later as well. Egerton (1885) describes an Arab sword from Sudan, presumably actually a kaskara, with 3 foot long blade of flexible steel believed European and probably from Solingen. It is known that in the 1780s in England during the so called 'sword scandals' with English blades vs. German imports, much of the testing on the blades was on the flexibility. The questions remain... were the blades seen in these early reports on Omani broadswords German imports; were they combat reliable; and equally were they able to produce the vibrations and sound desired for the 'war dance'? While thus far we have said that German import blades were too stiff for dance swords, however it seems accounts of the German blades indicate good flexibility. It is thought than one of the primary entrepots for these German import blades was Egypt, as it had been from earlier times, in the period of these narrarives as well. There are accounts of German blades being sold at the Shendy center in northern Sudan in 1814, suggesting these blades coming into these regions from Red Sea trade. These trade networks also sent blades into Arabia usually via Yemen, with caravans eastward. I am somewhat doubtful of the potential for schiavona blades, though it is tempting to consider some of the early blades might have entered North Africa. What is important to note here however is that these 'schiavona' were primarily backswords, that is single edged. I do not believe a single edged sword would have been considered for the Omani long hilt dance sword as these backsword blades are notably rigid for thrusting, as were many British and European cavalry swords for dragoons of 17th and 18th centuries. While for a time at the end of the 19th century there were attempts to align the schiavona and the Highland broadsword, it was quickly proven that the two swords, though both basket hilts were in no way connected. It remains unclear whether the German blades in Omani swords would have been sufficiently flexible for the war dance events, but the suggestion remains that the action of vibrating them did take place before combat use. It also remains suggested that the swords for the pageantry dancing did not use these import blades, and were likely locally made. The conundrum is of course whether battle swords were separate entities from the dance swords, or whether the two were one in the same. The old battle sayf, in its distinct hilt which appears to be a traditionally held form that is likely from considerable antiquity also remains elusive in establishing its verifiable presence in place from the 8th century, but the history of these regions offers compelling potential of that being the case. As we have noted, it does seem these did acquire import blades in some degree, but it is unclear whether these hilts were on the swords described in the forementioned narratives. All the best, Jim |
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