Sirau and their use

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by David

Well Lew, i think the biggest bit of speculation going on here is that this knife is intended to be used as a weapon at all. It is still my suspicion that this is primarily a work knife. The edge position might well be oriented to some specific work duty. I really can't say. But i also don't think we can apply any specific form of martial technique or grip to this blade either...

Well, at least for the siraui I have in hand, I think Lew is right. It seems mainly to be a pistol-grip, edge-up stabber.

But then again there are two varieties of such knives.

[David]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Well, at least for the siraui I have in hand, I think Lew is right. It seems mainly to be a pistol-grip, edge-up stabber.

And you can't think of any utilitarian purpose for such a blade orientation other than stabbing a human being...

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by David

And you can't think of any utilitarian purpose for such a blade orientation other than stabbing a human being...

*sigh* ok, I see how it is. Allow me to repeat myself...
"Well, at least for the siraui I have in hand [...] It seems mainly to be a pistol-grip, edge-up stabber."

Utility? Sure, the siraui I have could whittle and shave material when gripped pistol grip edge up with index and thumb pinching the ricasso region. In a conventional grip and the thumb on the spine I can slice and carve with it. I guess another utilitarian function could be stabbing a pig, or cutting a chicken's neck... But it feels most comfortable for stabbing, similar to a badik. I don't know of any pistol-grip utility knife designs...

Please consider...

[1] Most pistol grip knives I've encountered are meant mainly for people-killing. This one also feels that way. I don't personally know a punching-style or pistol grip knife meant primarily for utility.

[2] Also consider that there seems to be 2 forms of this knife. In fact you brought this up earlier in the thread. There's the non-fullered 90 degree choil blade often with a longer and straighter grip and there's the variation with a fuller and gradual choil and a more curved pistol-grip like handle.

[3] Keris-like sheaths. I could be wrong but I feel, with a keris-like sheath, there is a certain status and weapon implication there (though keris were and are not primarily weapons anymore, right?).

[4] Being a smaller blade does not make it a non-weapon. Look at karambits, Chinese daggers, small bichwas & katars, Sgian dubh, etc. Sometimes it is the hidden weapon that is the most dangerous due to surprise and concealability.

That's why I think, based on the considerations and the ergonomics of the siraui right here next to me in my possession, that it feels more fighting oriented. I think my points and my sense of ergonomics are valid.



Yet, you feel that I'm wrong and question my ability to imagine a utility role for it. You seem positive that there is a utility role for this knife. Please explain why... I'm new to the world Sumatran blades and in any case always willing to learn. I got no issue with admitting when I'm wrong, but show me.

What makes you think it is definitely a utility blade first and foremost?

[A. G. Maisey]

This particular form of knife is a bit outside my experience, I've seen a few, and sold a few, but I really do not know what this particular form of Sumatran knife is used for.

However, there are knives in Jawa and Bali that are extremely similar to this knife form, and those Javanese and Balinese knives are work knives, mostly used for working rotan, I believe.Some years ago I knew a tukang wrongko who favoured this style of knife for detail work in the carving of wrongkos.In Bali they are used in the preparation of offerings.

In my experience, knives from the entire Indonesian area that are used as weapons have blade geometry that presents a grind on either side of the blade, knives that have a chisel grind, as this knife presently under discussion does, are work knives. In Jawa and Bali any work knife that must be kept sharp is kept in a scabbard, very often a scabbard that is suited to waist carry in belt, setagen, or sarung folds.

[David]

Well KuKulz, i'm sorry that my questions are driving you you deep sighs...
When you speak of your knife in hand, which one are you referring to, the one in post #31 or #26.
Mr. Maisey has just pretty much expressed why i am leaning towards utilitarian purpose so i won't repeat his words. Certainly any edged blade can be used to do harm, but i don't get that as the main purpose of most of these blades. The much larger grooved variety might be different.
I actually brought up the difference in the two "types" of siraui to question if these are not in fact two completely different knives with different names. The name game can get quite ridiculous at times, but one thing we know for sure is that established writers have not always gotten them exactly right at times.

[Sajen]

I think that David is correct when I handle my two pieces. Like I have written before I tend to say that my pieces are utility knifes.
But when I look to the second piece from Michael in post # 15 and the two from Charles in #19 it could be good possible that these ones was used as weapons.

[fearn]

I can't say anything for how people cut food in Indonesia, but I do know that my mother always cuts smaller vegetables with the edge held up and the thumb pushing the veggies onto the edge. I personally think it's a crazy way to work, but unlike me, she's never cut herself using a knife that way. Effectively, it turns her hand into an anvil-style clipper.

If you don't have a clean surface or a cutting board, processing food in hand makes a lot of sense. If someone wants to experiment with cutting veggies with a sirau, I'd suggest cutting celery or something similar, because it doesn't tend to break suddenly, like a carrot, so the edge won't suddenly jerk towards your thumb.

Best,

F

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by David

Well KuKulz, i'm sorry that my questions are driving you you deep sighs...

It's only that you state a suspicion that it is not a fighting knife at all and provide no evidence or possible evidence for that. But then go on to imply I have no the capacity to imagine a utility role for it. Make a statement, back it up - that's all I'm saying. It doesn't make sense to me for you to take a stance, and then ask the opposing persepctive to come up with support for your arguement.

Originally Posted by David

When you speak of your knife in hand, which one are you referring to, the one in post #31 or #26.

for the past few posts, #31, my bad about the confusion.