Sirau and their use

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by fearn

Kukulz

What happens if you try a curving slash with this blade? Something like throwing a frisbee, with the edge out, and not letting go of the sirau?

F

Huh?

Do you mean pistol-grip, edge-up, except oriented horizontally so that if I am holding it in my right hand, I am going left to right?



BTW I've been informed that these are called Pisau Raut on Java and Pisau Wali in peninsular Malaysia?

[Lew]

Ok let us stop this complete speculation on how this knife is used. It is quite simple the blade is in upward position so that the natural momentum of the upward or straight thrust cuts into the victim to do the most damage. It's a thrusting dagger the same as the Moro gunong. Form follows function nothing else . The same reason you see certain types of military knives and bayonets with the cutting edge up it's simple physics.

[David]

Originally Posted by Lew

Ok let us stop this complete speculation on how this knife is used. It is quite simple the blade is in upward position so that the natural momentum of the upward or straight thrust cuts into the victim to do the most damage. It's a thrusting dagger the same as the Moro gunong. Form follows function nothing else . The same reason you see certain types of military knives and bayonets with the cutting edge up it's simple physics.

Well Lew, i think the biggest bit of speculation going on here is that this knife is intended to be used as a weapon at all. It is still my suspicion that this is primarily a work knife. The edge position might well be oriented to some specific work duty. I really can't say. But i also don't think we can apply any specific form of martial technique or grip to this blade either...

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by David

Well Lew, i think the biggest bit of speculation going on here is that this knife is intended to be used as a weapon at all. It is still my suspicion that this is primarily a work knife. The edge position might well be oriented to some specific work duty. I really can't say. But i also don't think we can apply any specific form of martial technique or grip to this blade either...

Well, at least for the siraui I have in hand, I think Lew is right. It seems mainly to be a pistol-grip, edge-up stabber.

But then again there are two varieties of such knives.

[David]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Well, at least for the siraui I have in hand, I think Lew is right. It seems mainly to be a pistol-grip, edge-up stabber.

And you can't think of any utilitarian purpose for such a blade orientation other than stabbing a human being...

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by David

And you can't think of any utilitarian purpose for such a blade orientation other than stabbing a human being...

*sigh* ok, I see how it is. Allow me to repeat myself...
"Well, at least for the siraui I have in hand [...] It seems mainly to be a pistol-grip, edge-up stabber."

Utility? Sure, the siraui I have could whittle and shave material when gripped pistol grip edge up with index and thumb pinching the ricasso region. In a conventional grip and the thumb on the spine I can slice and carve with it. I guess another utilitarian function could be stabbing a pig, or cutting a chicken's neck... But it feels most comfortable for stabbing, similar to a badik. I don't know of any pistol-grip utility knife designs...

Please consider...

[1] Most pistol grip knives I've encountered are meant mainly for people-killing. This one also feels that way. I don't personally know a punching-style or pistol grip knife meant primarily for utility.

[2] Also consider that there seems to be 2 forms of this knife. In fact you brought this up earlier in the thread. There's the non-fullered 90 degree choil blade often with a longer and straighter grip and there's the variation with a fuller and gradual choil and a more curved pistol-grip like handle.

[3] Keris-like sheaths. I could be wrong but I feel, with a keris-like sheath, there is a certain status and weapon implication there (though keris were and are not primarily weapons anymore, right?).

[4] Being a smaller blade does not make it a non-weapon. Look at karambits, Chinese daggers, small bichwas & katars, Sgian dubh, etc. Sometimes it is the hidden weapon that is the most dangerous due to surprise and concealability.

That's why I think, based on the considerations and the ergonomics of the siraui right here next to me in my possession, that it feels more fighting oriented. I think my points and my sense of ergonomics are valid.



Yet, you feel that I'm wrong and question my ability to imagine a utility role for it. You seem positive that there is a utility role for this knife. Please explain why... I'm new to the world Sumatran blades and in any case always willing to learn. I got no issue with admitting when I'm wrong, but show me.

What makes you think it is definitely a utility blade first and foremost?

[A. G. Maisey]

This particular form of knife is a bit outside my experience, I've seen a few, and sold a few, but I really do not know what this particular form of Sumatran knife is used for.

However, there are knives in Jawa and Bali that are extremely similar to this knife form, and those Javanese and Balinese knives are work knives, mostly used for working rotan, I believe.Some years ago I knew a tukang wrongko who favoured this style of knife for detail work in the carving of wrongkos.In Bali they are used in the preparation of offerings.

In my experience, knives from the entire Indonesian area that are used as weapons have blade geometry that presents a grind on either side of the blade, knives that have a chisel grind, as this knife presently under discussion does, are work knives. In Jawa and Bali any work knife that must be kept sharp is kept in a scabbard, very often a scabbard that is suited to waist carry in belt, setagen, or sarung folds.

[David]

Well KuKulz, i'm sorry that my questions are driving you you deep sighs...
When you speak of your knife in hand, which one are you referring to, the one in post #31 or #26.
Mr. Maisey has just pretty much expressed why i am leaning towards utilitarian purpose so i won't repeat his words. Certainly any edged blade can be used to do harm, but i don't get that as the main purpose of most of these blades. The much larger grooved variety might be different.
I actually brought up the difference in the two "types" of siraui to question if these are not in fact two completely different knives with different names. The name game can get quite ridiculous at times, but one thing we know for sure is that established writers have not always gotten them exactly right at times.