Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David R

Hi Ibrahiim, the subject of Omani "dancing swords" fascinates me. Perhaps you have posted elsewhere but..is there any chance of you posting a video of the sword dance in action. Believe it or not there is a tradition of UK sword dancing, called "Morris dancing" ie"Moorish Dancing" often claimed to have been brought back from the Crusades.

Salaams David~ Morris dancing.. ? I think that is a festive seasonal English pageant structure built arround ancient beliefs no? In which case it is the same sort of reasoning behind the Funoon traditions in Oman but in the Morris they use sticks and bells (and drink lots of cider !) Its a tradition but the idea is similar)... There is a dance routine enactment on web just tap into search Omani Sword Fighting I think..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Devadatta]

Salaams Ibrahiim, thank you for ansewr.

So as far as I understand you, long straight saif was made only for dancing and never was a weapon, neither battle one nor what we can call presentation (like European court swords, small-swords, officer dress-daggers and so on which can't be counted as actual weapons due to light construction but underline the high status of their owners)

But I see one more picture of modern days - I guess it's H.M. Sultan Qaboos himself, and as I can see he is wearing a straight saif. So I just wanted to ask could there be a possibility of using straight saifs as a kind of presentation weapon, or their role is only for dancing and nothing more? Thank you in advance!

[Devadatta]

Also as I can see straight saifs often serve as official presents..

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Also as I can see straight saifs often serve as official presents..

Salaams Devadatta I imagine that this is the most awarded presentation gift as is the Omani Khanjar. This Omani Sayf is in gold trim and seen being given to a visiting dignatory by the Ruler.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ~ The majority of old pictures depict Zanzibari or Muscat Sultans sporting great long curved Kattara swords but because of the constraints on close up pictures in the late 19th C. often the sword picture is cut at about half way!(making identification difficult) Often they are also seen with Khanjars and/ or either of the other swords (Shamshir Style or Zanzibari Nimcha)... or no weapon at all.

Something of a clue is offered by the nature of the badge of office in that in full regalia a Sultan(Official or VIP) is not likely to be about to engage in pageantry, moreover, it is the curved sword Kattara being worn to reflect the majestic rank of the wearer ( Such swords tend to have slightly longer hilts than the dancing straight Sayf variant.) The final proof in this case is in photo two of a full length showing "the curve". The Omani Kattara !

In addition below The Kattara is rigged to carry in the low mount on two sword rings.) Note also the Royal Khanjar.(Anyone is entitled to wear it) This is Tipu Sultan the great slave trader.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Salaams Ibrahiim, thank you for ansewr.

So as far as I understand you, long straight saif was made only for dancing and never was a weapon, neither battle one nor what we can call presentation (like European court swords, small-swords, officer dress-daggers and so on which can't be counted as actual weapons due to light construction but underline the high status of their owners)

But I see one more picture of modern days - I guess it's H.M. Sultan Qaboos himself, and as I can see he is wearing a straight saif. So I just wanted to ask could there be a possibility of using straight saifs as a kind of presentation weapon, or their role is only for dancing and nothing more? Thank you in advance!

Salaams Devadatta ~ Yes thats the ruler holding a sword with gold trim in what appears to be either straight or curved variety though I cant tell since its cut off half way bet I suspect it is curved. None the less in the case of the ruler he can wear what he pleases The straight Sayf is "Dancer Only" not for fighting though often given as a present... Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[David R]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams David~ Morris dancing.. ? I think that is a festive seasonal English pageant structure built arround ancient beliefs no? In which case it is the same sort of reasoning behind the Funoon traditions in Oman but in the Morris they use sticks and bells (and drink lots of cider !) Its a tradition but the idea is similar)... There is a dance routine enactment on web just tap into search Omani Sword Fighting I think..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

There are actualy two traditions of sword dancing in Morris, one with a conventional "sword", and the other with a grip at each end of the blade so it can be held by two dancers at the same time. It is believed the double grip originated in the use of horse grooming tool as a sword substitute. Just one of those oddities we have here in the UK.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David R

There are actualy two traditions of sword dancing in Morris, one with a conventional "sword", and the other with a grip at each end of the blade so it can be held by two dancers at the same time. It is believed the double grip originated in the use of horse grooming tool as a sword substitute. Just one of those oddities we have here in the UK.

Salaams David R ~ Then it appears that the closest comparison to the Razha section(SWORDS CELEBRATORY SECTION) in the Funoon pageant tradition~ in the form of a processional dance and secondly in a mimic fight "al yalaah" which goes back to 751 AD and beyond is Morris Dancing in the UK!

UK Pantomime styles I believe also exist in the Guy Fawks celebrations and in the ring a ring o roses enactment by children of the great plague...and in pageants such as The Furry Dance.

In Oman the unwritten form takes on quite another level and everyday "way of life" events are recorded so that the body of work (The Funoon) is sub-divided into Agriculture, Fishing, Trade, Marriage and War to name a few of the unwritten, acted out, pageantry; songs, dances, poetry and performances which are sacrasanct and handed down faithfully generation to generation.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

""The Omani dancing sword was never used nor was it intended for use as a fighting weapon. The sword dance is purely honorific and as part of the Funoon reflecting a tradition. Going in to bat against a swordsman with a proper sword would leave someone without fingers and probably minus a hand in about 2 seconds flat ! Piano lessons would be cancelled !""

This has already been answered. The lack of quillons or guard is no measure. The evidence can be found in many swords such as:

1- Shashkas.
2- Afghan Shashkas.
3- Sinai bedouin Saber.
4- Dhas.
5- Barongs.
6- Khyber knives.

So there is plenty of evidence to counter your assumption here.

""The Omani Sayf dancing sword was designed for the traditions.. The Razha ... nothing else. The shield blocking is part of a show. Exponents can attack the shield but can only score the winning point by touching the opponents thumb with the spatulate tip...""

Sure, that might be the rules of the dance. But you are neglecting the existance of sharp saifs and ones with pointy tips.. oh wait, these are one offs... many one offs.

""The flexibility is for show only~ so that the blade can be buzzed in the air in the procession part of the Razha. People would laugh at you if you went into a sword fight with a 90 degree bending tip !!""

Not necessarily, after all, not all Kattaras are flexible blades ;-) (I take the whole "solid blades are touristy" argument as very.. well pointless)

""No quillons, no spike on the pommel, and a blade that bends virtually in half does not equal a fighting sword..Your suggestion of the spiked pommel being "subjective" is puzzling. ( On this point we are refering to the Old Omani Battle Sword comparing its spiked pommel with the Dancing Sayf which has no spike). The spike being for close quarter battle. Why else would a sword have a spiked pommel? More importantly why has the dancing sword not got one? Hardly subjective; I suggest.""

This is subjective because not every sword that went to use through out history has a spiked pommel. The straight Omani saif not having a spiked pommel does not say much about its purpose ;-)

""What is far more relevant is that the term Sayf was passed on from the Old Omani Battle Sword ~ The SAYF YAMAANI ~ along with the TERRS SHIELD to be honoured in the Funoon by this dancing tool, a simbolic accoutrement...not a weapon system as such but given the name Omani Sayf wa Terrs.""

Or maybe they just called a saif.. a saif like most arabs do?:P

""Your Bedawi reference is, as you indicate, ill placed, however, I would suggest that this is an interesting weapon requiring serious research and fine detail...""

You still missed the point. My reference was regarding the situation in which the badawi has evolved, the straight Omani "MAY" have went to the exact same thing as like the badawi, there are solid battle omani saifs and dance ones. So all am saying is, your whole conclusion is assumptive.


(Decided to reply here, in order not to delay Illiad's topic)

[Devadatta]

Gents, sorry to interrupt your discussion, but here I found several old photos with straight saif. As I see they belong to forum member Michael Blalock, so I really hope there's no problem if I provide links:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865...n/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865...n/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865...n/photostream/

OK, the last one can be a little curved kattara - I'm not sure. But at first two we can see pure straight saif. I just wanted to ask Ibrahiim - are these photos supposed to be taken before/after the dance, or we may consider that saif could be worn at some official occasions (like a parade/dress weapon)?

Thank you

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Gents, sorry to interrupt your discussion, but here I found several old photos with straight saif. As I see they belong to forum member Michael Blalock, so I really hope there's no problem if I provide links:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865...n/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865...n/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865...n/photostream/

OK, the last one can be a little curved kattara - I'm not sure. But at first two we can see pure straight saif. I just wanted to ask Ibrahiim - are these photos supposed to be taken before/after the dance, or we may consider that saif could be worn at some official occasions (like a parade/dress weapon)?

Thank you

Salaams Devadatta ~ Nice photos. As you can see there are many Iconic swords on display in these pictures including Shamshir style and Zanzibari Nimchas as well as curved long Kattaras with long hilts and some pictures with straight swords in the dancing configuration of Omani Sayf. Difficult to say how these photos were set up... The one with the tree in the background looks like a studio set up. Who knows which of these swords were supplied just for the picture shoot or who was wearing what sword for what purpose Im afraid... Al I can say is that as a rule The dancing straight sayf was not used as an Iconic sword(as far as I know~ but it might have been) but that the others were certainly used for that purpose.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

""The Omani dancing sword was never used nor was it intended for use as a fighting weapon. The sword dance is purely honorific and as part of the Funoon reflecting a tradition. Going in to bat against a swordsman with a proper sword would leave someone without fingers and probably minus a hand in about 2 seconds flat ! Piano lessons would be cancelled !""

This has already been answered. The lack of quillons or guard is no measure. The evidence can be found in many swords such as:

1- Shashkas.
2- Afghan Shashkas.
3- Sinai bedouin Saber.
4- Dhas.
5- Barongs.
6- Khyber knives.

So there is plenty of evidence to counter your assumption here.

""The Omani Sayf dancing sword was designed for the traditions.. The Razha ... nothing else. The shield blocking is part of a show. Exponents can attack the shield but can only score the winning point by touching the opponents thumb with the spatulate tip...""

Sure, that might be the rules of the dance. But you are neglecting the existance of sharp saifs and ones with pointy tips.. oh wait, these are one offs... many one offs.

""The flexibility is for show only~ so that the blade can be buzzed in the air in the procession part of the Razha. People would laugh at you if you went into a sword fight with a 90 degree bending tip !!""

Not necessarily, after all, not all Kattaras are flexible blades ;-) (I take the whole "solid blades are touristy" argument as very.. well pointless)

""No quillons, no spike on the pommel, and a blade that bends virtually in half does not equal a fighting sword..Your suggestion of the spiked pommel being "subjective" is puzzling. ( On this point we are refering to the Old Omani Battle Sword comparing its spiked pommel with the Dancing Sayf which has no spike). The spike being for close quarter battle. Why else would a sword have a spiked pommel? More importantly why has the dancing sword not got one? Hardly subjective; I suggest.""

This is subjective because not every sword that went to use through out history has a spiked pommel. The straight Omani saif not having a spiked pommel does not say much about its purpose ;-)

""What is far more relevant is that the term Sayf was passed on from the Old Omani Battle Sword ~ The SAYF YAMAANI ~ along with the TERRS SHIELD to be honoured in the Funoon by this dancing tool, a simbolic accoutrement...not a weapon system as such but given the name Omani Sayf wa Terrs.""

Or maybe they just called a saif.. a saif like most arabs do?:P

""Your Bedawi reference is, as you indicate, ill placed, however, I would suggest that this is an interesting weapon requiring serious research and fine detail...""

You still missed the point. My reference was regarding the situation in which the badawi has evolved, the straight Omani "MAY" have went to the exact same thing as like the badawi, there are solid battle omani saifs and dance ones. So all am saying is, your whole conclusion is assumptive.


(Decided to reply here, in order not to delay Illiad's topic)

Salaams A.alnakkas. Please try to understand that hypothesis and research are two different things. Whilst you may possibly think a sword should obey this or that rule and without full research you can simply conclude; may not be a valuable lesson since you may perhaps be relying on gut feeling and not upon the facts. On research we appreciate but we don't situate.

Whilst there may be a few odd weapons (normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you ) that do not employ quillons the Omani dancing sword, though it looks like a long sparring sword doesn't have them because it's not a fighting weapon. (see current thread)

There arent any Omani Sayfs with points or stiff blades. There are some hybrids but they are mainly tourist swords done in Muscat since 1970. Omani dancing swords "SAYF" do not have this configuration. Omani people dont go for the hybrid varieties because you cant dance with a dead blade. Its that simple.

The only true Omani Battle Sword with a straight stiff pointed blade is the "Sayf Yamaani". The Old Omani Battle Sword. No others exist.

The spiked Pommel is answered at the other post however it is assumed that a short battle sword (Sayf Yamaani) with a spiked pommel would have in its arsenal of possible uses the close quarter battle technique employing a strike to soft targets like the eyes neck and face. I shall search for documentary proof; as always.

Your Quote
Not necessarily, after all, not all Kattaras are flexible blades ;-) (I take the whole "solid blades are touristy" argument as very.. well pointless)Unquote

This is not initially understood but I assume you mean Sayf not Kattara since as you will recall~ Sayf are the straight whilst Kattara are the curved ~ so that my answer must be Yes, all Omani Sayfs are flexible bladed and round tipped. They are all dancing swords. They are not weapons and never were.

(Naturally the Old Omani Battle Sword "Sayf Yamaani" is as described; a fighting weapon..Stiff, powerful, double edged, short blade, pointed, with quillons and a pommel spike.. emanating in about circa 751 AD and giving its "Sayf" name and "Terrs Shield" over to the new honorific pageant style of Flexible Omani dancing Sayf in about 1744)
The Sayf Yamaani exibits the classic example of weapons freeze.

Where you are perhaps getting confused is upon the appearance of Hybridised weapons that have been switched and available in Muscat since about 1970 and have fooled tourists and the unsuspecting passer by for nearly half a century.

The Bedawi weapon is an excellent subject in which to invest time and effort in meaningful and respectable research. I can certainly assist in this, however, since you are much closer to the source in such blades perhaps you would like to lead with an opening new thread on the subject. There are Bedouin in Oman namely Rashidi, Bayt Kathiir, Wahayybi and Harsiisi(Jarsiis) and maybe one or two others...and it would be an interesting subject.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

""Salaams A.alnakkas. Please try to understand that hypothesis and research are two different things. Whilst you may possibly think a sword should obey this or that rule and without full research you can simply conclude; may not be a valuable lesson since you may perhaps be relying on gut feeling and not upon the facts. On research we appreciate but we don't situate. ""

Wa Alaikum elsalam.

I am open to your idea. Its just that you havent yet provided good evidence for it. Your assumptions for why the straight saif is dance only has been answered, and I will counter your replies.

""Whilst there may be a few odd weapons (normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you ) that do not employ quillons the Omani dancing sword, though it looks like a long sparring sword doesn't have them because it's not a fighting weapon. (see current thread)""

Are you saying that the Shashka, the afghan shashka, the barong, the sinai shashka, the dhas, the khyber knives AND the yataghans are "extremely short blades vertually knife length"?

Have you even handled one?

Again, there are plenty of swords with no quillons and those swords are battle tested. Your assumption IS WRONG.

""There arent any Omani Sayfs with points or stiff blades. There are some hybrids but they are mainly tourist swords done in Muscat since 1970. Omani dancing swords "SAYF" do not have this configuration. Omani people dont go for the hybrid varieties because you cant dance with a dead blade. Its that simple.""

Not really. This is rather assumptive. Why are you suggesting that solid(er) blades are touristy made in the 70's? Whats the evidence? Majority of Kattaras with solid blades tend to have fine mounts and silver wire stitched hilts, this is against the tourist trade which generally goes for the least costy products. I'd say an Omani trader would have a better chance selling a flexible, made yesterday for Razha type of swords to tourists since its less costy.

""This is not initially understood but I assume you mean Sayf not Kattara since as you will recall~ Sayf are the straight whilst Kattara are the curved ~ so that my answer must be Yes, all Omani Sayfs are flexible bladed and round tipped. They are all dancing swords. They are not weapons and never were""

Yep, I mean the straight saif, but out of habit I just call it kattara. I actually agree with your research regarding terminology and totally appreciate it. When you said so, I researched alittle bit online and found out that websites with random information about the Shihies (or their websites) would call the curved one Kattarah (كتارة) and straight ones; saif. So I am with you on this one.

But not with you on the purpose of the straight saif.

""Where you are perhaps getting confused is upon the appearance of Hybridised weapons that have been switched and available in Muscat since about 1970 and have fooled tourists and the unsuspecting passer by for nearly half a century.""

Not really.

""The Bedawi weapon is an excellent subject in which to invest time and effort in meaningful and respectable research. I can certainly assist in this, however, since you are much closer to the source in such blades perhaps you would like to lead with an opening new thread on the subject. There are Bedouin in Oman namely Rashidi, Bayt Kathiir, Wahayybi and Harsiisi(Jarsiis) and maybe one or two others...and it would be an interesting subject. ""

Again, the badawi offers a similar view to the straight saif. But true, defintely deserves more research ;-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

""Salaams A.alnakkas. Please try to understand that hypothesis and research are two different things. Whilst you may possibly think a sword should obey this or that rule and without full research you can simply conclude; may not be a valuable lesson since you may perhaps be relying on gut feeling and not upon the facts. On research we appreciate but we don't situate. ""

Wa Alaikum elsalam.

I am open to your idea. Its just that you havent yet provided good evidence for it. Your assumptions for why the straight saif is dance only has been answered, and I will counter your replies.

""Whilst there may be a few odd weapons (normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you ) that do not employ quillons the Omani dancing sword, though it looks like a long sparring sword doesn't have them because it's not a fighting weapon. (see current thread)""

Are you saying that the Shashka, the afghan shashka, the barong, the sinai shashka, the dhas, the khyber knives AND the yataghans are "extremely short blades vertually knife length"?

Have you even handled one?

Again, there are plenty of swords with no quillons and those swords are battle tested. Your assumption IS WRONG.

""There arent any Omani Sayfs with points or stiff blades. There are some hybrids but they are mainly tourist swords done in Muscat since 1970. Omani dancing swords "SAYF" do not have this configuration. Omani people dont go for the hybrid varieties because you cant dance with a dead blade. Its that simple.""

Not really. This is rather assumptive. Why are you suggesting that solid(er) blades are touristy made in the 70's? Whats the evidence? Majority of Kattaras with solid blades tend to have fine mounts and silver wire stitched hilts, this is against the tourist trade which generally goes for the least costy products. I'd say an Omani trader would have a better chance selling a flexible, made yesterday for Razha type of swords to tourists since its less costy.

""This is not initially understood but I assume you mean Sayf not Kattara since as you will recall~ Sayf are the straight whilst Kattara are the curved ~ so that my answer must be Yes, all Omani Sayfs are flexible bladed and round tipped. They are all dancing swords. They are not weapons and never were""

Yep, I mean the straight saif, but out of habit I just call it kattara. I actually agree with your research regarding terminology and totally appreciate it. When you said so, I researched alittle bit online and found out that websites with random information about the Shihies (or their websites) would call the curved one Kattarah (كتارة) and straight ones; saif. So I am with you on this one.

But not with you on the purpose of the straight saif.

""Where you are perhaps getting confused is upon the appearance of Hybridised weapons that have been switched and available in Muscat since about 1970 and have fooled tourists and the unsuspecting passer by for nearly half a century.""

Not really.

""The Bedawi weapon is an excellent subject in which to invest time and effort in meaningful and respectable research. I can certainly assist in this, however, since you are much closer to the source in such blades perhaps you would like to lead with an opening new thread on the subject. There are Bedouin in Oman namely Rashidi, Bayt Kathiir, Wahayybi and Harsiisi(Jarsiis) and maybe one or two others...and it would be an interesting subject. ""

Again, the badawi offers a similar view to the straight saif. But true, defintely deserves more research ;-)

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ I think you need to read the available data at this thread and others to finally be convinced as I and the rest of the population in Oman are, (including the Museums and the National Herritage Association) viz;..

1. That the Omani dancing sword; (The very flexible long hilted, spatula tipped, straight Sayf of circa 1744 introduction) is in fact not a weapon and never was. It is for pageant and dancing only.

2. That interloper swords infiltrated by traders into Oman since 1970 have been rehilted in Muscat and sold on the tourist market particularly straight Yemeni and Saudia blades of the sort we are discussing.

3. That these swords are not bought by Omani people as dancing swords but by visitors who think they are a dancing sword when in fact they are not. They dont buzz. They are heavier and have a point. They were originally weapons. An Omani person would much rather buy a broomstick than one of these !!

4. That the Omani Straight is a Sayf and the curved is a Kattara (though I note that despite the 250 plus posts on this Forum you needed to go online to discover this on the Shehe website, though, I have to say well done on confirming that ! so why dont you kindly post that website on this thread as confirmation?)

Actually I was just thinking that this time last year I was in Kabul where I must have handled about 1,000 different weapons of the type Kard, Pulwar and others where I noted the lethality of the blades on swords mainly designed to go straight into the attack as opposed to parry. The majority were short by comparison more like a butchers knife. Naturally there are weapons that are designed to slash and chop but I'm afraid the Omani long dancer is not one of these.

There is even a strange sword that wraps around the body which is totally flexible and used like a whip(I owned one). Whilst that too is a weapon employing flexibility; the Omani dancing Sword is NOT. It is for dancing and pageants only.

HAVE i HANDLED WEAPONS ? I trained with a master of weapons of the Chinese tAI cHI (fighting style) school and in spear particularly. I trained in the Japanese style and used a live Omani Kattara blade to compare (not reccommended) I am a black belt first dan in knockdown Kyokushinkai and trained with one of Oss!! "Sossai Maso Yama" Oss!! "young lions" the well respected master from Beirut, Sensei Rashiid Sabbagh... for 10 years. I am trained on every modern bayonett and firearm invented~I am a marksman class shot(Rifle) since the late 20th C. Weapons were my profession for decades ! I own 50 swords and have owned hundreds more. Therefor since you call into question have I handled them?...the answer is Yes.

The subject of the Bedawi weapon is intriguing and I wonder where it started life and how it transmitted ~ Its not an Omani weapon though may be evidenced in these fringe Bedu groups perhaps from Murra to Rashid and on to Bait Kathiir and Harsis.. I urge you to throw your energy into that and as a specialist in Omani artefacts, arms and armour and as a camel owner (See Wilfred Thesiger as it was my team that did the Liwa re-enactment)) Im also a horse owner(Arabian and part Arabian) and junior Falcon associate. I have to go now as my Salukki arab hunting dog is at the vets !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.