Translation of Indian blade inscription

[A. G. Maisey]

These two photos have been sent to me by a friend with a request to try to find out the translation..

I'm sorry, but he has not given me photos of the complete dagger. I have seen it, and it is a peshkabz type thing.

Is anybody able to assist with a translation of this text?

Thank you.

[bhushan_lawate]

Hi,

Looks like a script from down South, from Andhra Pradesh or Karnataka.

Will check with a couple of friends who can read it.

The last two characters read "4" and "2" so most probably this should be some armory no. or something.

Regards,
Bhushan

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you very much, Bhushan

[Emanuel]

Hello,

I've asked my Telugu colleagues here in Hyderabad (Andhra Pradesh) and they can't read anything beyond the last 2 numbers.

Emanuel

[bhushan_lawate]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Hello,

I've asked my Telugu colleagues here in Hyderabad (Andhra Pradesh) and they can't read anything beyond the last 2 numbers.

Emanuel

Hi Emanuel,

Are you in Hyderabad? I've moved to Hyderabad tooo recently...!!!!


Regards,
Bhushan

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Emanuel

[laEspadaAncha]

The script is not Kannada according to my wife...

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Maisey,
Besides from some rust spots on the blade , it seems to be difficult to translate. Could you not ask your friend to send pictures of the whole dagger? Maybe it would help, if we could find a place of origin.

[Runjeet Singh]

It looks like 'Kanada' to me, perhaps from the Mysore armoury. Perhaps Olikara is on the forum and can help?

There are some similarities with this inscription: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=159

Regards,
Runjeet

[Jens Nordlunde]

Runjeet,
I believe it is Kannada as well, and the dagger you refer to, has the same kind of inscription.

[laEspadaAncha]

FWIW, Kannada is my wife's mother tongue, and while she admittedly does not fluently read it, she did grow up speaking it and surrounded by the language...

In the 3 1/2 years I've lived in India - all but maybe six months cumulative in Karnataka - I found I mistook Dravidian scripts for one another as often as I got them right.

Here's a link to the syllabic characters of the Kannada alphabet:

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/kannada.htm


ETA: Considering there is an unquestionable similarity to at least a couple characters in the inscription, maybe another dialect or colloquial language that borrows from Kannada script, e.g., Konkani?

[Jens Nordlunde]

I am no specialist in any of the Indian languages, but could it, perhaps, be written in an old dialect - not used any more?

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your interest gentlemen.

Jens, my friend will not permit a photo of the entire piece to be published, I have already asked for this.

I know this dagger, it is a peshkabz form, acutely tapered, straight T back blade, greenstone, possibly jade hilt. A very common form, nothing out of the ordinary, and you could pick half a dozen books that show this sort of thing and see this form.

I most sincerely doubt that a photo of the entire piece would assist in any way, but I do agree, it would be more interesting if I could post a pic of the piece concerned. I'll ask again, but even if he agrees it might be a while before it could go up, as he leaves for the UK today.

Incidentally Jens, since we did not attend high school together, nor do we belong to the same club, could I request that you address me as "Alan"? Thanks.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Alan,
So, your friend does not like to show the dagger, which is, of course, his privilege, but then you must/can not expect others to tell all they know.
Should your friend change his mind, I am not sure that I will, so maybe others will/can help - sorry.
Jens

[A. G. Maisey]

Jens, the way in which a person shares the information he or she may have is a very strong indication of the depth of that person's knowledge and also of his character.

For instance, I have known and still know a number of academics who cling tenuously to their tenures, and who possess shallow knowledge and very mean characters. These people are reluctant to share any information at all.

I also know people who are at the very top of their professions who openly share all and everything they know, except the perhaps the one or two percent of their knowledge that places them above the drones.

On the very few occasions when I do lodge a query in this Forum I expect nothing at all. If somebody with superior knowledge to my own in a particular field chooses to answer, it is his decision to do so, or not.

Personally, I do not see the involvement of anybody in this discussion group of being on the basis of "you give me this, and I'll give you that" . Every day of my life I answer questions from people all over the world, people whom I have never met and am never likely to meet. If I know an answer to the question, I give it, if I do not know I say so.

The question I have lodged concerns script, nothing more, nothing less.

If it can be read by somebody, an answer will be greatly appreciated.

The script has nothing at all to do with the object upon which that script has been placed. All the information necessary to answer the question has already been given.

This idea of yours that if a full photograph of somebody's possession is not given, then an answer to a straight forward, though apparently obscure question should not be given, I do indeed find very peculiar.

But then we all live by different standards, don't we?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Alan, it is commonly used on this forum, when a detail of a weapon is shown for discussion, also to show the whole weapon. The detail shown does not help me to find out from where the dagger comes, as my knowledge of the language shown on the detail, is very little, and does not give me a clear indication from where it comes, a picture of the whole dagger might have helped.

I use a lot of time researching and answering questions from other collectors, so your comment on my lack of help in this case, is taken with a .

Jens

[A. G. Maisey]

Jens, your reaction to my overly polite post is very surprising to me.
I have not commented in even the slightest degree upon your assistance, nor lack of it.

I have commented in general terms upon what I perceive to be a rather peculiar attitude. I am extremely familiar with this attitude, and it is one that has always mystified me.

I am also familiar with the usual practice of posting a photo of an entire piece, and the sticky that requests this, and this was the reason for my apology for being unable to comply with this practice. I would have thought that no further comment would have been required in regard to this.

The query I posted concerns script. Only script, nothing else. The fact that it is on a weapon is totally irrelevant, it might just as well have been on a piece of paper. If it can be read, it can be read: if cannot be read, then it cannot be read.

My friend was not asking to be told where this object was from, nor what it was called, nor how old it was, he was simply asking if the script could be read. It appears it cannot be read. End of story.

I thank you most sincerely for your efforts in attempting to read this script, but I accept that this is beyond you, as many things are equally beyond myself, and all of us. Since you cannot read it, then it is clear that you are not withholding any assistance, so how is it possible that I could make any sort of remark that referred to your lack of assistance? I'm sure you have done the best you could, and again I thank you for your efforts.

[Emanuel]

Hello Alan,

A friend's father identified the script as indeed being Kannada. The translation is attached.

First picture (top)

I think this is in Kannada. It says: “Choo Ra Sam. 47” (Here abbreviated ‘Sam’ stands for ‘Samvatsar’ or year. ‘Choo Ra’ could be name ‘Shoora’ ( or valiant person)

Second picture (bottom) writing is oriented upside down

See this picture through a mirror. Now it looks as below. (I rotated the picture clockwise 360 degree)

In Kannada it reads as follows:
“Shri Krishna Sam. 1163” (Shri Krishna Samvatsar 1163) (or Sri Krishna. Year 1163)

PS: I am not 100% sure whether my interpretation is correct.

The "choo ra" mention is interesting. We use this name for the smaller variant of these pesh-kabz/karud type daggers, but we've heard that this word is not used locally used. Perhaps the name was derived by some early collector from a similar inscription.

Regards,
Emanuel

[A. G. Maisey]

I thank you most sincerely for the time and effort you have taken in providing this translation, Emanuel, and I offer my friend's thanks on his behalf.

Do we know what the year is in our calendar?

[Emanuel]

My pleasure Alan.

1163 in the Malayalam calendar seems to correspond to 1988 Gregorian

If correct, then either the inscription is a later addition to the blade, or the whole thing is of recent manufacture - not unlikely.

[A. G. Maisey]

Again I thank you Emanuel, however, I feel there may be some degree of error in the dating.

As I said, I know this dagger. In fact I know it very well, until a few years go it belonged to me, before me it belonged to my grandfather, and he purchased it before 1920, on the way home from WWI.

It is a genuinely old dagger, and has been in Australia since before 1920, so I rather think the dating may be just a little bit off the mark.

[Jim McDougall]

I must add my own perspective on the apparant source of contention here, as I was the one who initiated the thread 'requesting' that when asking for translation assistance, the entire weapon be shown along with the detail showing the inscription or characters to be assessed.
The reason for this is that, as Jens has well noted, the context in which the inscription appears indeed does very much often carry important clues which relate to translation of inscriptions.

In many cases this more comprehensive information offers those who are working at assisting with what sometimes, actually often, can be be extremely esoteric material. It is distinctly a courtesy to assist those one is calling upon to offer them all help possible as well. I was once scolded severely by a very well known academic figure in an extremely prestigious institution when I asked him for help identifying an unusual sword, and was ill advised by a colleague not to tell him about what research I had already completed so as not to set preconceived notions in his response. This was not only foolish advice but profoundly discourteous, and when I inadvertantly noted my previous research in subsequent communication he pretty much exploded, and noted my omission had cost him many extra hours of precious time.

We openly offer assistance here in our goal of sharing information and learning together, in order to advance the study of these weapons and preserve thier history. To omit the context of sometimes important detail in inscriptions found on these weapons denies the members and readers the opportunity to learn in many cases. This is particularly true with ethnographic weapons, as obviously the nature of the weapon carrying the inscription can often have distinct bearing.
For example, in this case the weapon is described as a 'pesh kabz' which is a dagger typically known to be indiginous to the northern regions in India. Here the inscription appears to be in a southern language, whether Kannada or associated dialect, and tells us that the diffusion of these was indeed that far south. Obviously we already know this is the case, as with many Indian weapon forms, but it not only bolsters the support for this case, but can sometimes even identify regional attribution and important date establishing the period for the weapons presence there.

I will say that I often find it disagreeable when someone posts a weapon, in a 'here it is' kind of post with simply photos and cursory note on its type, mostly a thread title. If one has a weapon to inquire on, it does seem reasonable that as weapons collectors, one usually has books or references and would as a matter of simple curiosity at least tried to discover what the weapon is. I have the utmost regard for the majority who do post here and follow that process, as well as including the information at hand thus far and actually composing a well founded query. Since these are discussion forums, I consider laconic and presumptive blurbs less than helpful and in degree discourteous, as if those to whom the query is directed are not worthy of the requestors 'valuable' time. I consider everyone who posts here, and follows these simple elements of courtesy more than worth the many and countless hours I spend researching in order to respond in any way I can.

Thats what its about guys, courtesy and respect, two words I try very much to live by. Having said that, I would like to say that, on a different subject, the apparant misunderstanding here between Jens and Alan is more a result of interpretation of the situation at hand, and as often the case, the unfortunate lack of qualifying demeanor which is often a factor in todays computer oriented interchange. These two gentlemen are among the most highly respected members here, and I commend them both for the impressive and gentlemanly discourse they have observed in handling this misunderstanding.

Also, Chris and Emanuel, thank you both for the outstanding assistance with this translation and excellent participation. Well done everybody!!!!

Very best regards,
Jim

[A. G. Maisey]

Jim, I understand exactly what you are saying, and I do agree that it is always desirable that a photo of a complete piece is provided, along with a detail of the piece. Most especially in a context where most of the people viewing this particular site have a dedicated interest in weapons, rather than scripts.

This is the reason I lodged my apology with the original question, and according to my own standards of acceptable behaviour, no more should have been said in this respect.

Gentlemen do not question one another's apologies.

I asked a very simple question, on behalf of another person.

That question involved text.

If the text could be read, an answer would have been appreciated.

It appears that it may be able to be understood to some degree, but not read. This is not a problem, and is something I myself encounter quite frequently in my own field of knowledge. The people who placed script on weapons were never likely to be scribes.

I know two people with the ability to read old scripts. One has the ability to read old Chinese scripts, the other has the ability to read old Cyrillic scripts. The gentleman who can read old Chinese scripts is a research fellow at a Chinese university. Neither of these people need any knowledge of the object upon which the script is placed, to be able read it. Either they can read it, or they cannot.

Again, using my own field of expertise as a reference, I will say this:- neither I, nor anybody else I know who has some ability to read old Indonesian scripts needs a complete weapon to assist them to read the script:- either they can read it, or they cannot, whether it be on a weapon, a mirror, a cup, or a piece of paper.

The query I lodged was strictly relevant to the script, it had nothing whatsoever to do the object upon which that script was placed.

As I have said:- this was a very simple question, however, the answer to this simple question has proven to be rather obscure.

As far as I am concerned, this matter is closed. I thank all those who have attempted to assist in this matter, and I will advise my friend that notwithstanding the very best efforts of a number of knowledgeable people, the meaning of this script is still open to some degree of question.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Alan, all points well taken.

Jim