Go on...show us your Choora!!

Stan S. · 24th February 2012, 05:47 PM

It is my understanding that all 3 terms: Choora, Karud/Kard, and Pesh kabz are used interchangebly and varry based on location and the primary language spoken there.

On a separate note, I did not know that Kerala knives were carried in pairs such as in the example above

ariel · 29th October 2014, 03:06 AM

Are we dealing with specific patterns of distinct weapons or just ethnic variations of the,- basically,- the same Pesh Kabz?

Hint: Karud and choora have identical blades but different handles. Karud comes mainly from Central Asia, India and some from Afghanistan. Choora, however, is pinpointed to the Mahsud tribe of the Khyber Pass.

estcrh · 29th October 2014, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

It is my understanding that all 3 terms: Choora, Karud/Kard, and Pesh kabz are used interchangebly and varry based on location and the primary language spoken there.

Some notes from Artzi

Quote:

The ‘choora’ is a variant of the famous pesh-kabz and karud (the common name for a ‘pesh-kabz’ with straight blade) and a close relative to the Khayber sword. Its originate from the Khayber pass and used by the Mahsud people residing in this area. Its blade is very similar to that of the Karud knife: strong single edged with a ‘T’ shaped spine. They differ only in the shape of the hilt: The Choora usually has a pommel extending downward and the grip is composed of several Ivory or bone or horn sectors or a combination of all.

ariel · 31st October 2014, 02:16 PM

How do we date chooras?
Are there any examples firmly attributable to the 19th century or even earlier?

Gavin Nugent · 1st November 2014, 04:08 AM

Good Question Ariel.

Here is a nice old Wootz bladed Choora Ariel, how would you place this date wise?

Gavin

ariel · 1st November 2014, 02:05 PM

Gavin, I know full well that they were not signed or dated by and large. Otherwise I wouldn't have asked. But there are other ways, written sources, for example. And I do believe that experienced dealers do have a sense of age: materials, patination etc.
I have a feeling that a wootz blade or an ivory handle would be unlikely to be found on a choora made in, say, 1940:-)

You must have a copy of Egerton: Plate XIV, number 624.Is it a choora or not?
Egerton collected his samples during his short stay in India in the 1850s, if I remember.And he even specifically mentions a dagger called Ch'hurra , made in Khorasan, Kabul and Jellalabad: the last two located in the vicinity of the Khyber Pass and the first likely referring to the wootz examples, like yours.

Unless there is an iron-clad provenance, I would tentatively place your choora in the 19th century.

What do you think?

Gavin Nugent · 1st November 2014, 03:16 PM

Hi Ariel,

It took me a while to spot the knife and sheath you note...madly thumbing through both the original and the reprint looking for a Choora hilt, I couldn't see it for looking.

The dagger offers little in detail but I'd agree, its a Choora. The sheath shows designs I'd place as Afghanistan, which is a help.

If I was shown this Choora I've shown, I'd say 19th century and to be honest, when I first saw it, I jumped at it thinking it was, not knowing its true qualities and age until I had it in hand.

This Choora is Dated 1903 (Thanks Lofty). It is signed to the grip strap and named too. (I now have a Russian silver hilted Shashka in the same native dress that this Choora is found in too, spoils of war no doubt.)

I am so glad you mention the wootz factor too. To me, this Choora, having a super fine wootz blade along with this date means two things, wootz was still alive and well in these hidden parts of the world through which there was still great trade in the day and many hidden secrets (Still today) or it is a rehilt of an old blade, which is possible but I am not convinced it is a rehilt of an old blade...I do not have notes at hand but there was written accounts of Gypsies in Central Asia during this later time who were master forgers...I might have mentioned the passage here in the past....20th century wootz manufacture leaves a lot of thoughts to ponder since it was considered a lost art.

So I am equally lost with an accurate date unless it has a pedigree or provenance.

Gavin

ariel · 1st November 2014, 03:47 PM

Hi Gavin,
Thanks for the speedy answer. I am glad you agree with me on the Egerton's example:it is a choora, plain and simple. Thus, we can be absolutely certain that they existed even in the middle of the 19th century.

As I said, with the exact dating there is no doubt that yours is the beginning of the 20th.

I am fascinated by the mention of Gypsies making wootz in the 20th. If true, the "re-discoverer of bulat" general Anosov should have just gone to Central Asia instead of adding crushed diamonds to his crucibles:-). If you find the actual source of this info, and if it is believable, that would be a major revelation to the Wootz lovers all over the world. Please try to find it and publish it. And,perhaps, you might be kind enough to post it here: I am sure many, many Forumites willthank you!!!

1st November 2014, 04:08 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Good Question Ariel. Here is a nice old Wootz bladed Choora Ariel, how would you place this date wise? Gavin Attached Images

1st November 2014, 03:16 PM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The more I look Hi Ariel, It took me a while to spot the knife and sheath you note...madly thumbing through both the original and the reprint looking for a Choora hilt, I couldn't see it for looking. The dagger offers little in detail but I'd agree, its a Choora. The sheath shows designs I'd place as Afghanistan, which is a help. If I was shown this Choora I've shown, I'd say 19th century and to be honest, when I first saw it, I jumped at it thinking it was, not knowing its true qualities and age until I had it in hand. This Choora is Dated 1903 (Thanks Lofty). It is signed to the grip strap and named too. (I now have a Russian silver hilted Shashka in the same native dress that this Choora is found in too, spoils of war no doubt.) I am so glad you mention the wootz factor too. To me, this Choora, having a super fine wootz blade along with this date means two things, wootz was still alive and well in these hidden parts of the world through which there was still great trade in the day and many hidden secrets (Still today) or it is a rehilt of an old blade, which is possible but I am not convinced it is a rehilt of an old blade...I do not have notes at hand but there was written accounts of Gypsies in Central Asia during this later time who were master forgers...I might have mentioned the passage here in the past....20th century wootz manufacture leaves a lot of thoughts to ponder since it was considered a lost art. So I am equally lost with an accurate date unless it has a pedigree or provenance. Gavin

24th February 2012, 05:47 PM	#1
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	It is my understanding that all 3 terms: Choora, Karud/Kard, and Pesh kabz are used interchangebly and varry based on location and the primary language spoken there. On a separate note, I did not know that Kerala knives were carried in pairs such as in the example above

29th October 2014, 03:06 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Are we dealing with specific patterns of distinct weapons or just ethnic variations of the,- basically,- the same Pesh Kabz? Hint: Karud and choora have identical blades but different handles. Karud comes mainly from Central Asia, India and some from Afghanistan. Choora, however, is pinpointed to the Mahsud tribe of the Khyber Pass.

31st October 2014, 02:16 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	How do we date chooras? Are there any examples firmly attributable to the 19th century or even earlier?

1st November 2014, 02:05 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gavin, I know full well that they were not signed or dated by and large. Otherwise I wouldn't have asked. But there are other ways, written sources, for example. And I do believe that experienced dealers do have a sense of age: materials, patination etc. I have a feeling that a wootz blade or an ivory handle would be unlikely to be found on a choora made in, say, 1940:-) You must have a copy of Egerton: Plate XIV, number 624.Is it a choora or not? Egerton collected his samples during his short stay in India in the 1850s, if I remember.And he even specifically mentions a dagger called Ch'hurra , made in Khorasan, Kabul and Jellalabad: the last two located in the vicinity of the Khyber Pass and the first likely referring to the wootz examples, like yours. Unless there is an iron-clad provenance, I would tentatively place your choora in the 19th century. What do you think?

1st November 2014, 03:47 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Hi Gavin, Thanks for the speedy answer. I am glad you agree with me on the Egerton's example:it is a choora, plain and simple. Thus, we can be absolutely certain that they existed even in the middle of the 19th century. As I said, with the exact dating there is no doubt that yours is the beginning of the 20th. I am fascinated by the mention of Gypsies making wootz in the 20th. If true, the "re-discoverer of bulat" general Anosov should have just gone to Central Asia instead of adding crushed diamonds to his crucibles:-). If you find the actual source of this info, and if it is believable, that would be a major revelation to the Wootz lovers all over the world. Please try to find it and publish it. And,perhaps, you might be kind enough to post it here: I am sure many, many Forumites willthank you!!!