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24th February 2012, 07:21 AM
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#1 | |
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Not that it makes that big of a difference, though I guess it would move a hypothetical window for the origin of the stamps a little closer to the age of the gun... 
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24th February 2012, 02:59 PM
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#2 | |
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Spiral |
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24th February 2012, 05:27 PM
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#3 | |
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 Edward Barnes & Sons was a prolific maker who opened their shop in Sheffield in or around 1833, and were active until the end of the 3rd quarter of the century. However, by the time of the Civil War, it was common to find "Sheffield" stamped along with the maker's name and/or trademark, and there is no shortage of examples made in or around 1850 that were already stamped "Sheffield" along with the maker's name. One note: I cannot speak with absolute certitude that this knife dates as early as I believe it to, and it is entirely possible that I am mistaken with regards to my date attribution. Furthermore, I have known more than one example contemporary to this knife - and even later - in which serif fonts were still used in the dye stamps. I also have lying around somewhere an old Thomas Gill file knife, old enough to still employ an etched trademark, but with a "... Warranted ..." stamp that uses sans serif fonts as well, though it may take a bit of digging to find that one...  One final note - if Wiki is to be trusted, the first documented use of the term 'sans serif' by a foundry in England to describe such a font was in 1830. If this is valid, one has to assume the font existed before the label which came into use to describe it... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sans-se...tin_characters
Last edited by laEspadaAncha; 24th February 2012 at 06:17 PM. |
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24th February 2012, 05:39 PM
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#4 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
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Hi folks,
Are you sure that these posts on knives are placed in the right thread on a blunderbuss?!  Best, Michael |
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24th February 2012, 05:45 PM
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
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24th February 2012, 06:16 PM
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#6 | |
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I would humbly argue it is relevant in the context of the question surrounding the font type that appears in the stamp(s) used on the muzzle... While it is commonly accepted that such font types did not appear until the 4th quarter of the 19th century, there seem to be multiple examples of the use of such a font well before the 'accepted' timeframe... The presence of possible evidence supportive of an earlier (though surely uncommon) use of such a font type in dye stamps might prevent us from prematurely dismissing the stamps as inauthentic. That being said, I recently saw at auction two very well done fakes, including a pistol that incorporated an original barrel but with questionable (if not altogether spurious) markings... |
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24th February 2012, 06:31 PM
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#7 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
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Agreed, EspadaAncha,
Thanks! I guess we would all like to see those two fakes you mentioned! How about posting them after the auction is over? Best, Michael |
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24th February 2012, 07:04 PM
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#8 | |
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The auction took place either in December or January, and I think - "think" being the operative word - I archived some photos of the piece or pieces in question. I'll search for them later today, and will definitely post them if I can find them... Cheers, Chris |
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26th February 2012, 11:05 PM
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#9 |
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Posts: 1,712
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Thank You laEspadaAncha, unfortuantly to my eyes the appaling fit of blade to guard & hilt to guard as well as the use of brass as a guard to me eye looks even without the late font looks to be more likely 1970s Pakistan made item, rather than 19th century Sheffield
Perhaps I am wrong though? I would recomend Bernard Levines forum on bladeforums for a more "solid" opinion though, Hes an ornery old chap but has a great knowledge of old Sheffield pieces. { As do one or two others there including a chap who now a collector was a cutler in Sheffield many decades ago.} Spiral |
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27th February 2012, 02:16 AM
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#10 |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
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Hi Spiral,
I would suggest visting my Bowie knife thread from a year or so ago for an additional example of a mid-19th century knife with a brass guard. However, if the guard (on the side knife I show above) is brass, it is a white brass alloy, and more likely, German silver with a tarnish. Regardless, both the guard material and form as found on this knife (pointed ovoid) were common for mid-19th century knives (the thread also has a photograph of this particular knife): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13612 For that matter, if you can find even a single example - just one - of a Pakistani knock-off (contemporary or otherwise) that exhibits the proper "U*S" trademark stamp used by Edward Barnes & Sons to market their knives to the abolitionist American market - and as present in this example - I would very seriously consider sending you this knife for free. I agree the fitment is less than optimal, though I have more than a few knives that exhibit similar less-than-stellar fits, and have handled more examples than I can remember over the last 20-25 years. Both the guard material and form are common for mid-19th century knives, the 'white metal' used in the grip was commonly used through the 2nd and 3rd quarter of the 19th century (though IMO it is not the best choice for a grip), the MoP rosettes are stylistically consistent with the period, and the knife retains it's original sheath, which is obviously of the same age of the knife. I do in fact post on Bladeforums, as long before I could afford a decent sword I had been collecting American knives (while not made in the US, this knife was made for the American market), and I estimate I have more than 200 in my collection, from Revolutionary War side knives to LE folders made within the last quarter century. As I regret having digressed from the original topic of this thread - and have already apologized for the same to Cerjak - I would invite you to PM me with an email address if you would like to continue the discussion about this particular knife, which I would be happy to do. I will, however, leave you with a couple pictures of other Edward Barnes & Sons knives contemporary to my own, stamped in the same sans serif font. Ironically, this first knife was posted on Bladeforums (over two years ago). Please note the similarities with regards to the thickness and pointed ovoid shape of the guard:  The etching on the above example reads, "For the Gold Searchers Protection," dating this knife's manufacture to the Gold Rush market ca. 1850. This next example was made to commemorate General Zachary Taylor's victory at the Battle of Buena Vista in 1847. Please note the use of both a sans serif font as well as a 'footed' font on the reverse of the blade:  Lastly, here is another example from Cowans, yet another Civil War era Edward Barnes & Sons knife that is stamped in a sans serif font. Please note the poor fit of the guard:  There is overwhelming evidence that English cutlers were employing the use of a sans serif font by mid-century. Provided evidence exists that foundries were producing dye stamps in sans serif fonts in 1850, one should at the very least consider the validity of the anecdotal evidence suggesting they were being produced as early as 1830 as suggested in the link in my last response, which is much closer to the lifecycle of this weapon than a date of post-1870. I would therefore suggest that regardless of any perceived peculiarities regarding the execution and/or placement of the stamp(s) on the muzzle, that it might be premature to dismiss its validity for the use of the (sans serif) font per se. Regards, Chris Last edited by laEspadaAncha; 27th February 2012 at 06:42 AM. Reason: To capitalize German... my castle for a proofreader! |
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27th February 2012, 10:29 PM
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#11 | |
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Posts: 1,712
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Cheers Chris I agree we shouldnt hijack this thread further, althought I must say that although I am always pleased to learn & admit errors, the pilling of one fake or {perhaps just radicaly missdated knife?} upon another doesnt realy answear the questian. {Athough the Cowans piece when one sees the badly dyed & even ground stag & single rivet, certaly never came from 19th century Sheffield.} Someone puts a lot of sans serif "civil war" knives into Cowans for auction I notice. Perhaps we should start a new thread on these pieces & markings? But if you choose not to my email is spiraltwista@aol.com Regards, Jonathan |
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27th February 2012, 11:22 PM
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#12 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
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Jonathan,
Wouldn't you think that if all these examples were "fake" as you (IMO erroneously) are so quick to claim, that maybe... just maybe, someone - just one person - might have gone on record stating as much? The first example I posted was, as I wrote, originally posted on BF, and is from a museum-quality collection owned by an esteemed collector. Don't you think BRL would have chimed in if he had found the example to be anything less than authentic? When has he ever not? Flayderman also shows multiple documented examples of pre-Civil War knives in his treatise on the Bowie knife (link here), made in Sheffield, for the American market, that clearly show the use of a sans serif font. Once again - if you can find me one... just one example of a "fake" imported knock-off that executed the well-known "U*S" trademark as present and as it appears on my example, I will very seriously consider sending you the knife. For free. Of course, you will understand if I don't hold my breath, as such as example will not be forthcoming. Again, I believe the evidence in support of the use of sans serif fonts in England by the mid-19th century is insurmountable. Anyway, I will expand further in the new thread dedicated to this discussion, here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...779#post134779 Regards, Chris |
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