2 Victorian Lances

thinreadline · 16th February 2012, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Richmond,
thank you for the suggestion. Would you know if each inspector had his own 'number' specific to each individual person .....that was subsequently not used by anyone else ....ever.
I'm just wondering whether some sort of dating could be discovered by checking inspector marks to their dates of employment ....obviously if the 'mark number' is 'transferrable' then it would be likely that several inspectors would have the same number and would make this more problematic.

Best
David

Hi David
Yes the no. was assigned to a particular inspector, but sadly only for the duration of his employment .. it was then reissued to the new incumbent. So no help there I am afraid .
Richmond

katana · 17th February 2012, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinreadline

Hi David
Yes the no. was assigned to a particular inspector, but sadly only for the duration of his employment .. it was then reissued to the new incumbent. So no help there I am afraid .
Richmond

Hi Richmond,
thanks for the clarification, a little disappointing when the wear, tear and age (read, rust pitting) has hidden the markings/clues I seek

Kind Regards David

Norman McCormick · 18th February 2012, 10:32 PM

Hi David,
Not mine I'm afraid, old auction catalogue but I thought they would be of interest. The male part of the joint looks to have a sprung retaining piece so that it locks into the other so might not be such a weak joint as first appears.
My Regards,
Norman.

laEspadaAncha · 23rd February 2012, 04:36 PM

Wow, I wish I had been browsing the European weapons forum a month ago when this thread was begun. Not that I would have been able to contribute much other than to share the following image(s) following an encounter I had with a close friend of the late CO who commanded of the 6th Bengal Lancers during their last charge, against Red Shirts and Afridis near the Khyber Pass in or around 1929-1930.

In addition to my temporary possession of the Brigadier's sleeved cloak, cap, and boots, he loaned me the book written by said Brigadier, the cover of which depicts said charge... interesting to note the absence of pennants on the lances in the photo - were the pennants only attached during parades?

katana · 24th February 2012, 02:16 PM

Hi Chris,
thanks for adding this

facinating.

This recently was listed on eBay ..... would have loved to have got it ...but at that price

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1406977464...84.m1438.l2649

All the best
David

laEspadaAncha · 24th February 2012, 04:48 PM

Hi David,

My pleasure!

And while I consulted with the Professor extensively on both the suite of items and the gentleman to whom they originally belonged, I just realized something of note:

While the artwork for the book cover illustrates the aforementioned charge in '29/'30, the lances shown have bamboo shafts...

Which raises the question about the continued use of older patterns in colonial regiments long after the migration to ash shafts as per Jim's research.

Cheers,

Chris

katana · 24th February 2012, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hi David,

My pleasure!

And while I consulted with the Professor extensively on both the suite of items and the gentleman to whom they originally belonged, I just realized something of note:

While the artwork for the book cover illustrates the aforementioned charge in '29/'30, the lances shown have bamboo shafts...

Which raises the question about the continued use of older patterns in colonial regiments long after the migration to ash shafts as per Jim's research.

Cheers,

Chris

Hi Chris,
I believe regulations in the 'colonies' tended to be more relaxed and , probably even more so for the native units.

As to the pennon, I believe they were attached to the lance during battle. One of its functions was to absorb blood .....preventing it running down the shaft and making it slippery

All the best
David

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2012, 08:21 PM

Thank you so much Chris for posting the cover of this wonderful book by the Brigadier!!! it brings back many fond memories (it seems I still owe you a photo, which I will get to in due course

. As I have mentioned, I have handled the M1912 British officers sword he carried in that charge, which seems accurately represented in the painting though the bowl is not visible, but the scabbard mounts are correct. This leads me to believe that accuracy was keenly observed, and knowing the stickler the Brigadier was, I have no doubt such a detail as lance pennons would have been noted had they been present and incorrect, in our conversations.
While pennons did seem to be 'parade' oriented in the images I have seen of these Indian cavalry in WWI and of that period, I do believe they were indeed mounted on lances in combat. I had never heard the item about them serving the purpose of collecting blood, and would presume this idea may present along with the purpose of fullers in blades being 'blood gutters'. While sounding feasible perhaps in limited degree, these observations seem more contrived in my thinking.

I do know that pennons were indeed attached in combat with lances as per accounts of Polish lancers in the Napoleonic period, and that these pennons added dramatically to the sepsis of wounds by carrying this obviously contaminated material into them. The morbid agony of this typically mortal penetration was heightened by this factor as described in accounts I have seen, and as a result , lancers when captured were summarily killed rather than being held prisoner.
In the dramatic charge of the British 16th Lancers at Aliwal in India during the Sikh wars, after the battle the pennons of the troopers were so encrusted with blood in the aftermath, that it became a long held tradition for these lancers to 'crimp' thier pennons in remembrance. While the blood on the pennons was clearly of thier opponents, the observance was for the decimated ranks and men they lost in that charge.

As with many, if not most, colonial circumstances, yes often obsolete and surplus weapons and materials did continue almost anachronistically in these settings long beyond the period of familiar use in original context.
It seems most of the issues regarding the British lances was availability of male bamboo, and presumably in India there were more ready sources.
The durability of the lance pennons however, may not have been sufficient to keep them servicable in these frontier regions, and having them mounted in the case of this time period may have been considered superfluous. I think more concern was to the actual purpose of the lance rather than the traditional presence of these probably unreplaced items.

As to the materials used, as far as I know most pennons are made of the kind of bunting used in flags, however one lance I had in blue and yellow (3rd Skinners Horse) was made of a dyed almost burlap material.

All the best,
Jim

laEspadaAncha · 24th February 2012, 09:43 PM

Hi Jim,

It is of course my pleasure - I am happy to have been provided a context to share this book in the thread, and only wish I had seen it sooner... Of course, your invaluable input, information, and feedback went a long way towards helping me better appreciate this tangental 'brush' with the career of the Brigadier, and reading his book heightened my appreciation for the various regimental Lancers to such a degree that I would jump all over the opportunity to acquire a couple of these sharp and pointy 'history sticks.'

Speaking of which, David, I don't think I made explicit mention of the fact I am envious!

katana · 28th February 2012, 03:44 PM

Hi Jim

,
thank you for your observations and info. It is mentioned on various sites including the official Canadian Mounties site that the pennon absorbed blood .....I personally feel that this action was one of its function.
I believe that the pennon added several advantages....

The 'fluttering' pennon would be a distraction to the 'target' ....I'm reminded of the Chinese long spear which had ribbons attached to the shaft just below the head for this purpose. Although after some 'action' I would assume that the blood soaked material would cling to the shaft and render it 'useless' in this case

A very interesting point about infection, archers used to stick their arrows into the ground to promote tetanus infection in the wounds of their targets. Often clothing fragments were forced into the wounds created by musket balls, due to poor hygiene these fragments caused 'deep' infection. This effect was known and a few realised that fresh, clean clothing at the start of battle could lessen this problem. A contaminated pennon could indeed act as a biological 'delivery device'

I still feel that absorption of blood was important, the lance, during battle, would not always be carried horizontally, in the melee with horses and men tightly 'bunched', to gain manoeuvrability the lance would have to be raised vertically thus allowing blood to run down to the handle/hand. The slippery nature of fresh blood would be a problem.

Hi Chris

,
I am very lucky to have got these......they were advertised as African and the poor pictures only showed the upper bamboo shaft and the head. I immediately recognised these as British Lances ....others didn't...which was advantageous to me as few bid. It was only on collection that I even knew the lances were totally complete .....this grin

does not adequately show my face, as I was returning home after collecting them.

Kind Regards David

23rd February 2012, 04:36 PM	#4
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Wow, I wish I had been browsing the European weapons forum a month ago when this thread was begun. Not that I would have been able to contribute much other than to share the following image(s) following an encounter I had with a close friend of the late CO who commanded of the 6th Bengal Lancers during their last charge, against Red Shirts and Afridis near the Khyber Pass in or around 1929-1930. In addition to my temporary possession of the Brigadier's sleeved cloak, cap, and boots, he loaned me the book written by said Brigadier, the cover of which depicts said charge... interesting to note the absence of pennants on the lances in the photo - were the pennants only attached during parades? Attached Images

18th February 2012, 10:32 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi David, Not mine I'm afraid, old auction catalogue but I thought they would be of interest. The male part of the joint looks to have a sprung retaining piece so that it locks into the other so might not be such a weak joint as first appears. My Regards, Norman.

24th February 2012, 02:16 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Chris, thanks for adding this facinating. This recently was listed on eBay ..... would have loved to have got it ...but at that price http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1406977464...84.m1438.l2649 All the best David

24th February 2012, 04:48 PM	#6
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi David, My pleasure! And while I consulted with the Professor extensively on both the suite of items and the gentleman to whom they originally belonged, I just realized something of note: While the artwork for the book cover illustrates the aforementioned charge in '29/'30, the lances shown have bamboo shafts... Which raises the question about the continued use of older patterns in colonial regiments long after the migration to ash shafts as per Jim's research. Cheers, Chris

24th February 2012, 08:21 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Thank you so much Chris for posting the cover of this wonderful book by the Brigadier!!! it brings back many fond memories (it seems I still owe you a photo, which I will get to in due course . As I have mentioned, I have handled the M1912 British officers sword he carried in that charge, which seems accurately represented in the painting though the bowl is not visible, but the scabbard mounts are correct. This leads me to believe that accuracy was keenly observed, and knowing the stickler the Brigadier was, I have no doubt such a detail as lance pennons would have been noted had they been present and incorrect, in our conversations. While pennons did seem to be 'parade' oriented in the images I have seen of these Indian cavalry in WWI and of that period, I do believe they were indeed mounted on lances in combat. I had never heard the item about them serving the purpose of collecting blood, and would presume this idea may present along with the purpose of fullers in blades being 'blood gutters'. While sounding feasible perhaps in limited degree, these observations seem more contrived in my thinking. I do know that pennons were indeed attached in combat with lances as per accounts of Polish lancers in the Napoleonic period, and that these pennons added dramatically to the sepsis of wounds by carrying this obviously contaminated material into them. The morbid agony of this typically mortal penetration was heightened by this factor as described in accounts I have seen, and as a result , lancers when captured were summarily killed rather than being held prisoner. In the dramatic charge of the British 16th Lancers at Aliwal in India during the Sikh wars, after the battle the pennons of the troopers were so encrusted with blood in the aftermath, that it became a long held tradition for these lancers to 'crimp' thier pennons in remembrance. While the blood on the pennons was clearly of thier opponents, the observance was for the decimated ranks and men they lost in that charge. As with many, if not most, colonial circumstances, yes often obsolete and surplus weapons and materials did continue almost anachronistically in these settings long beyond the period of familiar use in original context. It seems most of the issues regarding the British lances was availability of male bamboo, and presumably in India there were more ready sources. The durability of the lance pennons however, may not have been sufficient to keep them servicable in these frontier regions, and having them mounted in the case of this time period may have been considered superfluous. I think more concern was to the actual purpose of the lance rather than the traditional presence of these probably unreplaced items. As to the materials used, as far as I know most pennons are made of the kind of bunting used in flags, however one lance I had in blue and yellow (3rd Skinners Horse) was made of a dyed almost burlap material. All the best, Jim

24th February 2012, 09:43 PM	#9
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Jim, It is of course my pleasure - I am happy to have been provided a context to share this book in the thread, and only wish I had seen it sooner... Of course, your invaluable input, information, and feedback went a long way towards helping me better appreciate this tangental 'brush' with the career of the Brigadier, and reading his book heightened my appreciation for the various regimental Lancers to such a degree that I would jump all over the opportunity to acquire a couple of these sharp and pointy 'history sticks.' Speaking of which, David, I don't think I made explicit mention of the fact I am envious!

28th February 2012, 03:44 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim , thank you for your observations and info. It is mentioned on various sites including the official Canadian Mounties site that the pennon absorbed blood .....I personally feel that this action was one of its function. I believe that the pennon added several advantages.... The 'fluttering' pennon would be a distraction to the 'target' ....I'm reminded of the Chinese long spear which had ribbons attached to the shaft just below the head for this purpose. Although after some 'action' I would assume that the blood soaked material would cling to the shaft and render it 'useless' in this case A very interesting point about infection, archers used to stick their arrows into the ground to promote tetanus infection in the wounds of their targets. Often clothing fragments were forced into the wounds created by musket balls, due to poor hygiene these fragments caused 'deep' infection. This effect was known and a few realised that fresh, clean clothing at the start of battle could lessen this problem. A contaminated pennon could indeed act as a biological 'delivery device' I still feel that absorption of blood was important, the lance, during battle, would not always be carried horizontally, in the melee with horses and men tightly 'bunched', to gain manoeuvrability the lance would have to be raised vertically thus allowing blood to run down to the handle/hand. The slippery nature of fresh blood would be a problem. Hi Chris , I am very lucky to have got these......they were advertised as African and the poor pictures only showed the upper bamboo shaft and the head. I immediately recognised these as British Lances ....others didn't...which was advantageous to me as few bid. It was only on collection that I even knew the lances were totally complete .....this grin does not adequately show my face, as I was returning home after collecting them. Kind Regards David