Weird Philippine sword/bolo

migueldiaz · 8th February 2012, 02:15 PM

Sajen/ Battara, I agree with Zel - the sword is from the Bicol region of Luzon.

As to its name, I'm still figuring it out. In Marcos de Lisboa's [MDL] 1754 Spanish-Bicol dictionary, as cited in Mintz, we see these archaic Bicol terms for the Bicolanos' common swords:

báˈid - (typ‑ knife, short, wide); MANG‑, PANG‑‑ON to cut s/t with a cutlass; MANG‑, PANG‑‑AN to cut s/t off from s/t with a cutlass [MDL]

salabay - cutlass, used only in narratives and verse in place of báˈid (Note: salabay is listed only as part of the entry for báˈid and is not a separate entry in Lisboa) [MDL]

káris - sword; MAG‑ to carry a sword; to duel; to fight with swords (two people); MA‑, ‑ON or MAG‑, PAG‑‑ON to wound s/o with a sword; to arm o/s with a sword; MA‑, ‑AN or MAG‑, PAG‑‑AN to arm s/o with a sword [MALAY keris] [MDL]

sundáng - bolo, machete [MDL: a knife (general term); any instrument used for cutting; suró-sundáng small knife or one made from wood or bamboo]

tabák - bolo, machete [MDL: knife (typ‑, also used as a weapon)]

Am just guessing but if we are to speculate, it looks like baid fits the bill most closely -- short and wide knife.

Thanks btw for posting the pics!

Lorenz

PS - The above was quoted from here.

Sajen · 8th February 2012, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Sajen/ Battara, I agree with Zel - the sword is from the Bicol region of Luzon.

As to its name, I'm still figuring it out. In Marcos de Lisboa's [MDL] 1754 Spanish-Bicol dictionary, as cited in Mintz, we see these archaic Bicol terms for the Bicolanos' common swords:

báˈid - (typ‑ knife, short, wide); MANG‑, PANG‑‑ON to cut s/t with a cutlass; MANG‑, PANG‑‑AN to cut s/t off from s/t with a cutlass [MDL]

salabay - cutlass, used only in narratives and verse in place of báˈid (Note: salabay is listed only as part of the entry for báˈid and is not a separate entry in Lisboa) [MDL]

káris - sword; MAG‑ to carry a sword; to duel; to fight with swords (two people); MA‑, ‑ON or MAG‑, PAG‑‑ON to wound s/o with a sword; to arm o/s with a sword; MA‑, ‑AN or MAG‑, PAG‑‑AN to arm s/o with a sword [MALAY keris] [MDL]

sundáng - bolo, machete [MDL: a knife (general term); any instrument used for cutting; suró-sundáng small knife or one made from wood or bamboo]

tabák - bolo, machete [MDL: knife (typ‑, also used as a weapon)]

Am just guessing but if we are to speculate, it looks like baid fits the bill most closely -- short and wide knife.

Thanks btw for posting the pics!

Lorenz

PS - The above was quoted from here.

Thank you Lorenz!

Sajen · 9th February 2012, 03:50 PM

I think that I will post the "story" which was now told to me by the seller who told me that the bolo was a WWII bringback from his great uncle.

This is the story my father was told by my Great Uncle Harry Buck. Harry was a Marine stationed on the Phillipines in WWII. My father recalls there were ten marines out on patrol and were ambushed by some Japanese. They had a fire fight for some time and the marines ended up killing most of the Japanese. The bolo was taken of a Japanese officer who had been killed in the firefight. It became a war trophy for my great uncle who gave it to my dad. I have no idea of the year but it was in the thick of things in WWII.

If the story is true like this I don't know but it seems believable that the bolo is from time of WWII. But want to post this story as well.

Regards,

Detlef

ThePepperSkull · 14th February 2012, 06:31 PM

^ I have heard very similar stories regarding many WWII era philippine blades. I wonder if this was because the Japanese soldiers preferred to use the enemy's Bolos as opposed to their own blades. I don't know much about their wartime-produced swords aside from the fact that they were mass produced and ssupposedly of lesser quality than than of a traditinally-made nihonto. Did they have a habit of breaking? Were the blades too long? Or was it just that the length of blade was too much for jungle warfare? I am not sure, but hopefully someone can illuminate this discussion.

Speaking of bicolano blades, Here's one that just ended on ebay (And that I missed out on bidding because I thought it ended tomorrow instead of today. D'oh!)

Congrats to whoever won it. I'm not sure exactly if this is a bicolano piece (The sheath carvings look different to me, as well as the blade being a single bevel as opposed to souble bevel like all of the other bicol blades I have seen.)

Another thing to note is that the sheath is Kamagong on one side and on the other side a lighter toned wood (I think it's either Molave of Yakal). This is a feature that you see in Philippine blades from Luzon even today, Mainly I believe it's because Kamagong is expensive and more coveted than other woods.

Sajen · 14th February 2012, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

^ I have heard very similar stories regarding many WWII era philippine blades. I wonder if this was because the Japanese soldiers preferred to use the enemy's Bolos as opposed to their own blades. I don't know much about their wartime-produced swords aside from the fact that they were mass produced and ssupposedly of lesser quality than than of a traditinally-made nihonto. Did they have a habit of breaking? Were the blades too long? Or was it just that the length of blade was too much for jungle warfare? I am not sure, but hopefully someone can illuminate this discussion.

Speaking of bicolano blades, Here's one that just ended on ebay (And that I missed out on bidding because I thought it ended tomorrow instead of today. D'oh!)

Congrats to whoever won it. I'm not sure exactly if this is a bicolano piece (The sheath carvings look different to me, as well as the blade being a single bevel as opposed to souble bevel like all of the other bicol blades I have seen.)

Another thing to note is that the sheath is Kamagong on one side and on the other side a lighter toned wood (I think it's either Molave of Yakal). This is a feature that you see in Philippine blades from Luzon even today, Mainly I believe it's because Kamagong is expensive and more coveted than other woods.

Hi Dave,

I have seen this sword as well and asked the seller if he will ship to Germany but he don't want, otherwise it will be now mine!

IMHO it is a Bicol bolo when I look to the hilt carving (batman

). Nice old sword and from me also congrats for the winner.
Have you noted that the sheath from my sword is made from two different wood as well?

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 19th February 2012, 01:30 PM

Received the bolo knife and have had some surprise. First I have thought that it is bigger but it is rather small, 44 cm inside the sheath with a blade from 28,5 cm. Handle is from horn and the blade have on front some engravings. The bands are from brass like from Dave supposed. He is also correct that there is shellac in front of the scabbard. So we can assume by the way of making and the information of the seller that it is a WWII area piece. Here some additional pictures.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 7th May 2012, 09:31 PM

This one ended recently by ebay. I am not the winner but I recognize the "bucao" stampon the blade. What will be the meaning?

9th February 2012, 03:50 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	I think that I will post the "story" which was now told to me by the seller who told me that the bolo was a WWII bringback from his great uncle. This is the story my father was told by my Great Uncle Harry Buck. Harry was a Marine stationed on the Phillipines in WWII. My father recalls there were ten marines out on patrol and were ambushed by some Japanese. They had a fire fight for some time and the marines ended up killing most of the Japanese. The bolo was taken of a Japanese officer who had been killed in the firefight. It became a war trophy for my great uncle who gave it to my dad. I have no idea of the year but it was in the thick of things in WWII. If the story is true like this I don't know but it seems believable that the bolo is from time of WWII. But want to post this story as well. Regards, Detlef Last edited by Sajen; 9th February 2012 at 05:20 PM. Reason: bad english writing from the seller!

14th February 2012, 06:31 PM	#4
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	^ I have heard very similar stories regarding many WWII era philippine blades. I wonder if this was because the Japanese soldiers preferred to use the enemy's Bolos as opposed to their own blades. I don't know much about their wartime-produced swords aside from the fact that they were mass produced and ssupposedly of lesser quality than than of a traditinally-made nihonto. Did they have a habit of breaking? Were the blades too long? Or was it just that the length of blade was too much for jungle warfare? I am not sure, but hopefully someone can illuminate this discussion. Speaking of bicolano blades, Here's one that just ended on ebay (And that I missed out on bidding because I thought it ended tomorrow instead of today. D'oh!) Congrats to whoever won it. I'm not sure exactly if this is a bicolano piece (The sheath carvings look different to me, as well as the blade being a single bevel as opposed to souble bevel like all of the other bicol blades I have seen.) Another thing to note is that the sheath is Kamagong on one side and on the other side a lighter toned wood (I think it's either Molave of Yakal). This is a feature that you see in Philippine blades from Luzon even today, Mainly I believe it's because Kamagong is expensive and more coveted than other woods. Attached Images

19th February 2012, 01:30 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Received the bolo knife and have had some surprise. First I have thought that it is bigger but it is rather small, 44 cm inside the sheath with a blade from 28,5 cm. Handle is from horn and the blade have on front some engravings. The bands are from brass like from Dave supposed. He is also correct that there is shellac in front of the scabbard. So we can assume by the way of making and the information of the seller that it is a WWII area piece. Here some additional pictures. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

7th May 2012, 09:31 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	This one ended recently by ebay. I am not the winner but I recognize the "bucao" stampon the blade. What will be the meaning? Attached Images

8th February 2012, 02:15 PM	#1
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Sajen/ Battara, I agree with Zel - the sword is from the Bicol region of Luzon. As to its name, I'm still figuring it out. In Marcos de Lisboa's [MDL] 1754 Spanish-Bicol dictionary, as cited in Mintz, we see these archaic Bicol terms for the Bicolanos' common swords: báˈid - (typ‑ knife, short, wide); MANG‑, PANG‑‑ON to cut s/t with a cutlass; MANG‑, PANG‑‑AN to cut s/t off from s/t with a cutlass [MDL] salabay - cutlass, used only in narratives and verse in place of báˈid (Note: salabay is listed only as part of the entry for báˈid and is not a separate entry in Lisboa) [MDL] káris - sword; MAG‑ to carry a sword; to duel; to fight with swords (two people); MA‑, ‑ON or MAG‑, PAG‑‑ON to wound s/o with a sword; to arm o/s with a sword; MA‑, ‑AN or MAG‑, PAG‑‑AN to arm s/o with a sword [MALAY keris] [MDL] sundáng - bolo, machete [MDL: a knife (general term); any instrument used for cutting; suró-sundáng small knife or one made from wood or bamboo] tabák - bolo, machete [MDL: knife (typ‑, also used as a weapon)] Am just guessing but if we are to speculate, it looks like baid fits the bill most closely -- short and wide knife. Thanks btw for posting the pics! Lorenz PS - The above was quoted from here.