Khyber and Choora with Bukharan (?) twists

ariel · 5th February 2012, 09:49 AM

AJ1356:
"Plus Bukhara and Samarqand are actually Tajik cities not Uzbek(which by twist of faith are located in todays Uzbekistan)."

At the time these two weapons were made, there were neither Tajikistan, nor Uzbekistan: just a medley of khanates. Tajiks are Persian-speaking, and Uzbeks speak Turkic dialect. Tajiks originally were land-settled, while Uzbeks trace themselves to the nomadic descendants of Gengiz Khan. Tajiks usually view themselves as belonging to a "civilized" race, and despise "barbaric" Uzbek intruders ( even though those lived there since 6th or 7th century and many likely belonged to the same ethic group originally). Their food is virtually identical, but with some twists: Uzbeks, for example, have dishes from horse meat and use milk, while Tajiks don't ( both staples likely reflecting nomadic past of the Uzbeks). In both places, Sunni Islam is predominant, however.

In the former Soviet Union one was taking his life in his own hands by mistakenly referring to a Tajik as Uzbek.

A somewhat similar animosity was encountered in former Yugoslavia, between, say, Serbs and Croats or Bosnians. The apparent silliness of that approach finally culminated in tragic outcomes of wars and mass murders during WWII and quite recently.

AJ1356 · 5th February 2012, 02:21 PM

Ariel, when I said Samarqand and Bukhara are Tajik cities it did not mean they are or were part of todays Tajikistan, it meant that when these 2 items were made and somewhat to this day, those 2 cities were predominantly populated by Tajiks. Actually they were populated by Farsi speakers well before the Mongol invation.

ariel · 5th February 2012, 05:17 PM

Let's stop right here. From personal experience on this Forum, nothing good comes out of the discussions dealing with ethnic policies, grievancies and perceived primacies.
May they all enjoy the proverbial life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I have a book on Uzbek metalwork, nothing on Tajik; do you know of any? Did Tajiks use turquoise ribbons on their weapons? To the best of my knowledge, this was characteristic of Bukhara proper. Any apple blossoms as a decorating element? Do you know of any published examples of unquestionably Tajik swords, manufacturing centers etc? I just know the difference between the knives: Uzbeki Pichok ( P'chack) vs. Tajik Kord ( subtle but obvious).
Best.

Gavin Nugent · 5th February 2012, 06:38 PM

From a Russian Museum site;

The Central Asian name of turquoise derived from Iranian word firusa - victory; therefore its presence on the weapon endowed the latter with especially strong magic power, providing good luck at war. Turquoise became especially common in war paraphernalia of Turkic peoples.

This would explain the stones being seen across a vast area.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th February 2012, 06:53 PM

Salaams all I noted the decorative technique of studding Feruze onto small silver boxes and jewelery by master craftsmen in Kabul. Naturally and as stated above this was for talismanic effect and design...Like many techniques there is bound to be some overlap so that Turkomen Jewellery etc exhibits similar designs and methodology to Afghan, Tajic and a host of other ethnic groups in what we now call Afghanistan. (and neighboring countries) When I was in Kabul I tried all the well known collector names for the different knives and daggers but Kard was what they use for any dagger I saw.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

5th February 2012, 09:49 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	AJ1356: "Plus Bukhara and Samarqand are actually Tajik cities not Uzbek(which by twist of faith are located in todays Uzbekistan)." At the time these two weapons were made, there were neither Tajikistan, nor Uzbekistan: just a medley of khanates. Tajiks are Persian-speaking, and Uzbeks speak Turkic dialect. Tajiks originally were land-settled, while Uzbeks trace themselves to the nomadic descendants of Gengiz Khan. Tajiks usually view themselves as belonging to a "civilized" race, and despise "barbaric" Uzbek intruders ( even though those lived there since 6th or 7th century and many likely belonged to the same ethic group originally). Their food is virtually identical, but with some twists: Uzbeks, for example, have dishes from horse meat and use milk, while Tajiks don't ( both staples likely reflecting nomadic past of the Uzbeks). In both places, Sunni Islam is predominant, however. In the former Soviet Union one was taking his life in his own hands by mistakenly referring to a Tajik as Uzbek. A somewhat similar animosity was encountered in former Yugoslavia, between, say, Serbs and Croats or Bosnians. The apparent silliness of that approach finally culminated in tragic outcomes of wars and mass murders during WWII and quite recently.

5th February 2012, 02:21 PM	#2
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	Ariel, when I said Samarqand and Bukhara are Tajik cities it did not mean they are or were part of todays Tajikistan, it meant that when these 2 items were made and somewhat to this day, those 2 cities were predominantly populated by Tajiks. Actually they were populated by Farsi speakers well before the Mongol invation.

5th February 2012, 05:17 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Let's stop right here. From personal experience on this Forum, nothing good comes out of the discussions dealing with ethnic policies, grievancies and perceived primacies. May they all enjoy the proverbial life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I have a book on Uzbek metalwork, nothing on Tajik; do you know of any? Did Tajiks use turquoise ribbons on their weapons? To the best of my knowledge, this was characteristic of Bukhara proper. Any apple blossoms as a decorating element? Do you know of any published examples of unquestionably Tajik swords, manufacturing centers etc? I just know the difference between the knives: Uzbeki Pichok ( P'chack) vs. Tajik Kord ( subtle but obvious). Best.

5th February 2012, 06:38 PM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	From a Russian Museum site; The Central Asian name of turquoise derived from Iranian word firusa - victory; therefore its presence on the weapon endowed the latter with especially strong magic power, providing good luck at war. Turquoise became especially common in war paraphernalia of Turkic peoples. This would explain the stones being seen across a vast area.

5th February 2012, 06:53 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all I noted the decorative technique of studding Feruze onto small silver boxes and jewelery by master craftsmen in Kabul. Naturally and as stated above this was for talismanic effect and design...Like many techniques there is bound to be some overlap so that Turkomen Jewellery etc exhibits similar designs and methodology to Afghan, Tajic and a host of other ethnic groups in what we now call Afghanistan. (and neighboring countries) When I was in Kabul I tried all the well known collector names for the different knives and daggers but Kard was what they use for any dagger I saw. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.