Wilah nr2 hope you can help with identification

A. G. Maisey · 10th January 2012, 03:09 AM

Penangsang, can I assume that you are located in Malaysia?

I raise this question because some of your recent posts relating to the Javanese keris reflect a point of view that is at variance with the generally accepted beliefs in Jawa. I find this interesting, as it demonstrates the existence of a non-Javanese belief system that relates to Javanese keris.

Regarding the smiths of Pajajaran. It seems that they migrated en masse to Majapahit, and this occurred a long time before Cirebon was even a dot on the map.

In respect of the very recent popularity of keris of Pajajaran classification, I feel that this is indicative of an increase in interest in the keris in general as a collectable, and a parallel deterioration in traditional Javanese values.

PenangsangII · 10th January 2012, 04:27 AM

Alan, indeed I am based in Malaysia, born in Malaysia from Malaysian parents. However, I am also a Javanese, speak Jawanese (ngoko) though somewhat can understand Jawa krama.

I know some of Malaysians of Jawanese descents belief system with regards to Jawanese keris is different compares to what the "Mataram kraton" belief system. It could be due to mix of cultures between the Jawanese and the local population in the peninsula, mostly Minangs and Bugis. But I was also told by an elderly kerisman, the belief system of the jawanese in Malaysia is actually a slowly evolved belief system since the mass exodus of the Jawanese to the peninsula during Amangkurat era. Some elderly kerismen quoted the belief system can be traced back to the Demak era after Adipati Yunus expedition to Malaka in early 16th century. No reference or writings can be produced. This is purely oral tradition.

Furthermore, in the culturally mixed society in Malaysia, keris is a keris, no matter where it originates from, as long as it can be used as intended, will be accepted as keris Melayu. The famous Taming Sari, though Jawanese of origin, is considered keris Melayu. The keris pusaka of the Kelantan Sultan, is a (claimed) Majapahit daphur Pandawa Cinarita - its regarded as Malay keris. Similarly also to kerises from other parts of the archipelago, we simply term them "keris Melayu". only when books and internet start to reclassify the kerises based from the place of origin, Malaysian collectors start to reclassify the kerises - be it Jawanese, Minang, Palembang, Bugis and so on

10th January 2012, 03:09 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Penangsang, can I assume that you are located in Malaysia? I raise this question because some of your recent posts relating to the Javanese keris reflect a point of view that is at variance with the generally accepted beliefs in Jawa. I find this interesting, as it demonstrates the existence of a non-Javanese belief system that relates to Javanese keris. Regarding the smiths of Pajajaran. It seems that they migrated en masse to Majapahit, and this occurred a long time before Cirebon was even a dot on the map. In respect of the very recent popularity of keris of Pajajaran classification, I feel that this is indicative of an increase in interest in the keris in general as a collectable, and a parallel deterioration in traditional Javanese values.

10th January 2012, 04:27 AM	#2
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Alan, indeed I am based in Malaysia, born in Malaysia from Malaysian parents. However, I am also a Javanese, speak Jawanese (ngoko) though somewhat can understand Jawa krama. I know some of Malaysians of Jawanese descents belief system with regards to Jawanese keris is different compares to what the "Mataram kraton" belief system. It could be due to mix of cultures between the Jawanese and the local population in the peninsula, mostly Minangs and Bugis. But I was also told by an elderly kerisman, the belief system of the jawanese in Malaysia is actually a slowly evolved belief system since the mass exodus of the Jawanese to the peninsula during Amangkurat era. Some elderly kerismen quoted the belief system can be traced back to the Demak era after Adipati Yunus expedition to Malaka in early 16th century. No reference or writings can be produced. This is purely oral tradition. Furthermore, in the culturally mixed society in Malaysia, keris is a keris, no matter where it originates from, as long as it can be used as intended, will be accepted as keris Melayu. The famous Taming Sari, though Jawanese of origin, is considered keris Melayu. The keris pusaka of the Kelantan Sultan, is a (claimed) Majapahit daphur Pandawa Cinarita - its regarded as Malay keris. Similarly also to kerises from other parts of the archipelago, we simply term them "keris Melayu". only when books and internet start to reclassify the kerises based from the place of origin, Malaysian collectors start to reclassify the kerises - be it Jawanese, Minang, Palembang, Bugis and so on