How to id a European kaskara blade?

Mefidk · 9th January 2012, 03:32 PM

I think what is interesting about the peg is that it is not present on my rusty swords hilt, nor has it ever been. But there is a hole in the tang for a peg, hence my assumption that it has been rehilted at least once. Whoever re-hilted yours probably did a better job and replaced the peg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Secondly, and on a related note, is it worth trying to take the hilt off the example in question? I've noticed that, on the tab of metal positioned just below the downward arms of the cross-guard, there appears to be some kind of marking. Moreover, if there's any information on the tang, removing the grip would allow me to see that, too. It all looks very straightforward...

I wonder if whether you could do the same trick as I did and clean under the langet enough to be able to make out what, if anything, is written there? I used a scotch-brite pad gently for a while (its easy to pass under the tab and does not scratch the metal). Once I had the surface rust removed shining a light under there revealed the marks.
Personally I would not dismantle unless (as in my case) the hilt is already really loose. Also I just had to pull, no peg to remove.

What would be really great would be if we could get comparative measures for your blades too - start to build up a database. Its especially interesting because you have blades with provenance - I'm looking for a green with envy smiley right now

I think I can figure out how to make that flex test easy to replicate for others, so we all get comparable figures, if there would be any interest in that?

Iain · 10th January 2012, 01:23 PM

Hi Chris,

Please do post the system you are using for flex, more samples are obviously needed to draw conclusions and if the process is pretty simple I would hope others will participate.

I've just bought a kaskara which I hope will arrive in a week or two and may have one of the Clauberg blades (if I'm lucky) and I'll be happy to test it as well.

Chris, if you like I can host the PDF and put a link back here?

Cheers,

Iain

Iain · 19th January 2012, 11:18 AM

So I got the kaskara. Not a Clauberg, now I have no clue what it is!

First the dimensions.

Overall: 94cm
Blade: 81.5cm
Max blade width: 3.6cm

This seems close to the Clauberg you have Chris, but... I don't have the standing knight or letters. Under the guard on both sides I've got a strange, but very well executed wasp! Took the best photos of it I could. Blade seems pretty well made, good flexibility. Certainly some shoulders back towards the base and nicely sharpened.

It's a little smaller than some of the other kaskara I've had pass through my hand and the unknown stamp makes me wonder if the blade is native. However the mark is executed pretty darn well.

All thoughts comments appreciated.

Iain

Mefidk · 19th January 2012, 08:03 PM

Nice wasp Iain

No idea what it means, but it does look very nicely executed.

Should be able to post my flex test over the weekend, so it would be interesting to see if the flex matches the Clauberg.

I can't see any sign of a residual ricasso on your pictures, but it does look as though it has been sharpened pretty aggressively at some point so I'm not sure that means anything. The one difference I can see is the depth of the fuller, but that may simply mean that this blade has not been mistreated as much as some of the others. In fact I'm wondering if this repeated sharpening might also be the cause of the shallow and wandering shape of the fullers on some of these old blades - on the other hand they might have been made that way

Jim McDougall · 20th January 2012, 11:08 PM

I've been going through all the standard references, Cronau, Gyngell, Lenciewicz, Boccia & Coelho etc. and no sign of a wasp anywhere. Since Italu once used the scorpion it was tempting to associate, and we have the fly from c.1847 Solingen. My take at this point is that it is a native marking tending toward some of the concepts connected to warrior attributes, i.e. cross and orb=drum for courage; the fly= jumping agility etc. It is in this case placed near the blade root under the langet much as some of the other marks, thus extending this imbued power to the blade. Obviously this is a speculative suggestion, but seems to correspond in a sense to other use of these 'talismanic' markings on these blades.

I am wondering if this now seemingly well represented type of blade with elliptical fuller upper third of blade might be of a type produced by the smiths in the Sudanese regions near Kasalla influenced by Solingen prototypes entering those regions c.1890s. The stamp may have been from one used by industrial manufacturers active in commerce there during the condominium and related to stamping of products handled there? Possibly the stamp is outside the arms perview, but well applied in the parlance of the other similar type markings?

Iain · 21st January 2012, 01:12 AM

Hi Jim,

I was hoping Ed might have some insights when he gets a chance to visit the thread.

Looks like I went through a few of the same materials as you, although you covered more ground for sure. I also produced a blank, not a sign of a wasp in anything takouba or kaskara related I have access to.

I think the blade is likely to be native at this point, the fuller isn't as long as on Chris' Clauberg for one thing. Still it's well made with good flex. I think the entry of this blade style was earlier, as the standing knight was in use by Clauberg from 1850.

The stamp does confuse me though, the style isn't something I'd associate with most native marks. I think if it is native, you are spot on with the talismanic attributes idea, similar thoughts crossed my mind.

Where's Ed?

Edster · 21st January 2012, 05:33 PM

Sorry, Iain, I can't help. In my limited experience I've never seen anything like it. The figure looks to be in one piece and seems too big, deep and well struck to be a native mark. One would really have to give the die a strong whack to get the imprint into steel and would have to do it after the fuller was formed and before the blade was hardened, although the blade at the upper end generally would not be hardened as much as on the sharp end. Also, it is apparently unique. All this being said, I still don't have a clue and can't hazard a guess.

10th January 2012, 01:23 PM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Chris, Please do post the system you are using for flex, more samples are obviously needed to draw conclusions and if the process is pretty simple I would hope others will participate. I've just bought a kaskara which I hope will arrive in a week or two and may have one of the Clauberg blades (if I'm lucky) and I'll be happy to test it as well. Chris, if you like I can host the PDF and put a link back here? Cheers, Iain Attached Images

19th January 2012, 11:18 AM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	So I got the kaskara. Not a Clauberg, now I have no clue what it is! First the dimensions. Overall: 94cm Blade: 81.5cm Max blade width: 3.6cm This seems close to the Clauberg you have Chris, but... I don't have the standing knight or letters. Under the guard on both sides I've got a strange, but very well executed wasp! Took the best photos of it I could. Blade seems pretty well made, good flexibility. Certainly some shoulders back towards the base and nicely sharpened. It's a little smaller than some of the other kaskara I've had pass through my hand and the unknown stamp makes me wonder if the blade is native. However the mark is executed pretty darn well. All thoughts comments appreciated. Iain Attached Images

19th January 2012, 08:03 PM	#4
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Nice wasp Iain No idea what it means, but it does look very nicely executed. Should be able to post my flex test over the weekend, so it would be interesting to see if the flex matches the Clauberg. I can't see any sign of a residual ricasso on your pictures, but it does look as though it has been sharpened pretty aggressively at some point so I'm not sure that means anything. The one difference I can see is the depth of the fuller, but that may simply mean that this blade has not been mistreated as much as some of the others. In fact I'm wondering if this repeated sharpening might also be the cause of the shallow and wandering shape of the fullers on some of these old blades - on the other hand they might have been made that way

20th January 2012, 11:08 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	I've been going through all the standard references, Cronau, Gyngell, Lenciewicz, Boccia & Coelho etc. and no sign of a wasp anywhere. Since Italu once used the scorpion it was tempting to associate, and we have the fly from c.1847 Solingen. My take at this point is that it is a native marking tending toward some of the concepts connected to warrior attributes, i.e. cross and orb=drum for courage; the fly= jumping agility etc. It is in this case placed near the blade root under the langet much as some of the other marks, thus extending this imbued power to the blade. Obviously this is a speculative suggestion, but seems to correspond in a sense to other use of these 'talismanic' markings on these blades. I am wondering if this now seemingly well represented type of blade with elliptical fuller upper third of blade might be of a type produced by the smiths in the Sudanese regions near Kasalla influenced by Solingen prototypes entering those regions c.1890s. The stamp may have been from one used by industrial manufacturers active in commerce there during the condominium and related to stamping of products handled there? Possibly the stamp is outside the arms perview, but well applied in the parlance of the other similar type markings?

21st January 2012, 01:12 AM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Jim, I was hoping Ed might have some insights when he gets a chance to visit the thread. Looks like I went through a few of the same materials as you, although you covered more ground for sure. I also produced a blank, not a sign of a wasp in anything takouba or kaskara related I have access to. I think the blade is likely to be native at this point, the fuller isn't as long as on Chris' Clauberg for one thing. Still it's well made with good flex. I think the entry of this blade style was earlier, as the standing knight was in use by Clauberg from 1850. The stamp does confuse me though, the style isn't something I'd associate with most native marks. I think if it is native, you are spot on with the talismanic attributes idea, similar thoughts crossed my mind. Where's Ed?

21st January 2012, 05:33 PM	#7
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	Sorry, Iain, I can't help. In my limited experience I've never seen anything like it. The figure looks to be in one piece and seems too big, deep and well struck to be a native mark. One would really have to give the die a strong whack to get the imprint into steel and would have to do it after the fuller was formed and before the blade was hardened, although the blade at the upper end generally would not be hardened as much as on the sharp end. Also, it is apparently unique. All this being said, I still don't have a clue and can't hazard a guess.