Wilah nr2 hope you can help with identification

A. G. Maisey · 9th January 2012, 02:17 PM

Yes Jean, I agree, there is somewhat of a hole in understanding of exactly what the characteristics of a Cirebon blade might be. Since the people who wrote the rule book on this game were Javanese, this suggests to me that to the Javanese, Cirebon was not regarded as particularly important to them from the perspective of a tangguh classification for keris which might have originated from that place.

The people who wrote the rule book were not collectors who sought to pigeonhole keris, but Javanese aristocrats who had an entirely different motivation for developing a system of classification. To those people, clearly Cirebon simply did not matter.

Thus, they lumped Cirebon and other places to the west into one basket and called that basket Pajajaran. Yes, agreed, it is a simplification, for the apparent reason that Cirebon was not relevant to those aristocrats.

I think you know my views on identification of blades in European sources, so I'm not going to go there. However, let us look at the straight blades posted to this thread:-

Post #10 unable to be definite from the photo, but it appears to have some characteristics which could indicate Pajajaran (now corrected)

Post # 14 classifiable as Tuban

Post # 17 this blade displays some Mataram characteristics, as is usual, it would need to be handled for any certainty

But the important thing is this:- each of these blades is totally different one from the other, to my eye, no similarities at all, except that they are keris and straight. To my eye these keris are total strangers to one another.

Two of the waved blades are similar:- the blade in post #1, and the blade in post # 10.

In respect of the difference in appearance that exists between blades brought from the North Coast of Jawa in the 16th and 17th centuries, and Javanese blades that exist today and are claimed to originate from the same time frame.

What we see today are blades which are only shadows , or ghosts, of the originals. Erosion of material due to tropical climate and repeated cleaning over several hundred years has resulted the frail shadows that we see today.

I have a blade that has the provenance of having been brought to Holland prior to 1800. It is a perfect generic Mataram blade, except for one thing:- it is strong, thick and powerful. Virtually no erosion has occurred.

There is another factor that must be recognized:- simply because these early blades were collected on the North Coast, this does not mean they were made on the North Coast. I think close examination of these blades would result in classifications other than the North Coast for some of them.

Jean, I have no problem at all with anybody believing what he will about origin, or name, or almost anything else with keris. To me, these things are not particularly relevant to my own core interest. Javanese keris people believe that keris of modern form which are classifiable as Kahuripan and Kediri actually originated in those places during the relevant eras. If its OK for these people to believe that, its OK for western collectors to believe whatever they wish to believe. Meanwhile, the really big questions that surround the keris in Jawa and Bali go unrecognized, let alone addressed.

Keris in Jawa are surrounded by belief systems rather than systems based upon knowledge and logic. Why shouldn't western collectors be permitted the same indulgence?

David · 9th January 2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Post #14 unable to be definite from the photo, but it appears to have some characteristics which could indicate Pajajaran

Post # 14 classifiable as Tuban

Alan, could you clarify this. You named 2 blades as post #14, but that post only contains one blade.

Jean · 9th January 2012, 05:24 PM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for your interesting reply again and I will just make some minor observations:
You first say that the blade in post # 14 may be from Pajajaran and in next sentence from Tuban, I think that you mean post # 10 may be from Pajajaran and post #14 from Tuban, please confirm.
To my eyes, the blades shown in posts # 10 and # 17 are quite similar (the style of tikel alis for instance), however # 17 is more recent I think, and the differences may only come from the village smiths who made them. If you held # 17 in your hand, you would probably disregard the Mataram classification because of its size (43 cm without peksi). I show you two other similar blades for reference, the first one is 42 cm long and similar to post # 10 and the second one 40 cm long and similar to post# 17 (more recent).
Regarding the differences between the old blades in the European museums and those attributed to contemporary Javanese periods, of course I agree that the erosion should play a part. However the differences in the shape of these two categories of blades (size, luks, kembang kacang, ganja, gandik, etc.) are such that it does not appear to be a sufficient explanation to me, and the pamor should have virtually disappeared from these "ghost" blades, which is not always the case. Of course I assume that the dating and provenance of these krisses in the museums are basically correct, if not from where? (Bali as thought by Bambang Harsrinuksmo?).
And I fully agree with your conclusion....
Best regards
Jean

9th January 2012, 05:24 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for your interesting reply again and I will just make some minor observations: You first say that the blade in post # 14 may be from Pajajaran and in next sentence from Tuban, I think that you mean post # 10 may be from Pajajaran and post #14 from Tuban, please confirm. To my eyes, the blades shown in posts # 10 and # 17 are quite similar (the style of tikel alis for instance), however # 17 is more recent I think, and the differences may only come from the village smiths who made them. If you held # 17 in your hand, you would probably disregard the Mataram classification because of its size (43 cm without peksi). I show you two other similar blades for reference, the first one is 42 cm long and similar to post # 10 and the second one 40 cm long and similar to post# 17 (more recent). Regarding the differences between the old blades in the European museums and those attributed to contemporary Javanese periods, of course I agree that the erosion should play a part. However the differences in the shape of these two categories of blades (size, luks, kembang kacang, ganja, gandik, etc.) are such that it does not appear to be a sufficient explanation to me, and the pamor should have virtually disappeared from these "ghost" blades, which is not always the case. Of course I assume that the dating and provenance of these krisses in the museums are basically correct, if not from where? (Bali as thought by Bambang Harsrinuksmo?). And I fully agree with your conclusion.... Best regards Jean Attached Images

9th January 2012, 02:17 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,064	Yes Jean, I agree, there is somewhat of a hole in understanding of exactly what the characteristics of a Cirebon blade might be. Since the people who wrote the rule book on this game were Javanese, this suggests to me that to the Javanese, Cirebon was not regarded as particularly important to them from the perspective of a tangguh classification for keris which might have originated from that place. The people who wrote the rule book were not collectors who sought to pigeonhole keris, but Javanese aristocrats who had an entirely different motivation for developing a system of classification. To those people, clearly Cirebon simply did not matter. Thus, they lumped Cirebon and other places to the west into one basket and called that basket Pajajaran. Yes, agreed, it is a simplification, for the apparent reason that Cirebon was not relevant to those aristocrats. I think you know my views on identification of blades in European sources, so I'm not going to go there. However, let us look at the straight blades posted to this thread:- Post #10 unable to be definite from the photo, but it appears to have some characteristics which could indicate Pajajaran (now corrected) Post # 14 classifiable as Tuban Post # 17 this blade displays some Mataram characteristics, as is usual, it would need to be handled for any certainty But the important thing is this:- each of these blades is totally different one from the other, to my eye, no similarities at all, except that they are keris and straight. To my eye these keris are total strangers to one another. Two of the waved blades are similar:- the blade in post #1, and the blade in post # 10. In respect of the difference in appearance that exists between blades brought from the North Coast of Jawa in the 16th and 17th centuries, and Javanese blades that exist today and are claimed to originate from the same time frame. What we see today are blades which are only shadows , or ghosts, of the originals. Erosion of material due to tropical climate and repeated cleaning over several hundred years has resulted the frail shadows that we see today. I have a blade that has the provenance of having been brought to Holland prior to 1800. It is a perfect generic Mataram blade, except for one thing:- it is strong, thick and powerful. Virtually no erosion has occurred. There is another factor that must be recognized:- simply because these early blades were collected on the North Coast, this does not mean they were made on the North Coast. I think close examination of these blades would result in classifications other than the North Coast for some of them. Jean, I have no problem at all with anybody believing what he will about origin, or name, or almost anything else with keris. To me, these things are not particularly relevant to my own core interest. Javanese keris people believe that keris of modern form which are classifiable as Kahuripan and Kediri actually originated in those places during the relevant eras. If its OK for these people to believe that, its OK for western collectors to believe whatever they wish to believe. Meanwhile, the really big questions that surround the keris in Jawa and Bali go unrecognized, let alone addressed. Keris in Jawa are surrounded by belief systems rather than systems based upon knowledge and logic. Why shouldn't western collectors be permitted the same indulgence? Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 9th January 2012 at 07:49 PM.