Special sword for ID and comments

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2012, 03:59 AM

Emanuel, I think the connection presuming links between the Iflissen tribal component of the Berbers of Kabylia, actually in NE Algeria and Morocco may stem from misstatements in Stone for one instance. He inadvertantly identified the flyssa as Moroccan, when these are distinctly an Algerian form attributed to the Kabyles. Apparantly these regions in thier religion follow Sunni Islam but with the Malekite rite which is primarily centered in Morocco. Perhaps somehow this religious and cultural connection, along with the fact that the broader Maghrebi designation included both Algeria and Morocco led to the misperception.

The flyssa itself is a perplexing weapon and its origins, both timewise and from where both the subject of many years of debate. Personally I favor the idea that these distinct swords evolved from Turkish yataghan forms and while examples typically are from mid 19th century, may have existed up to a hundred years earlier.

One of the only focused studies on these is :
"Sabre Kabyles Etude des Flissa, du Musee de ''Homme"
Camille LaCoste-Dujardin,
'Journal de la Societe des Africanistes' XXVIII, 1958

The author observes the refitting of yataghan blades in Algiers and Oran which were mounted with Kabyle type scabbards. The acquisition of a sword for young Kabyle men was a sort of 'rite of passage', and while the familiar 'flyssa' was of course typically seen, the Ottoman yataghan was also much admired and sought after.
There are remarkable similarities of course between various straight backed, deep bellied yataghans and the flissa. The needle type point that is also typical recalls those of Circassian and Tatar sabres, with these groups profoundly represented among Ottoman forces.

I am simply adding this detail for source material for those interested in the 'flyssa' and would point out that much of the material compiled on these has been tremendously augmented by the work you have done and contributed in the many discussions we've had on them here.

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 13th January 2012, 03:14 PM

Thanks Jim !

Trust McDougall to clear things up

Warm regards,
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2012, 04:56 PM

You bet Emanuel, and thanks for saying that

Actually Iain would have been able to respond to this quandry more concisely as his study of the tribal relationships throughout the Sahara has been profound, but I jumped in when I saw your name come up.
Havent seen you here that much lately so glad to see you!!

All the best,
Jim

Iain · 13th January 2012, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

You bet Emanuel, and thanks for saying that

Actually Iain would have been able to respond to this quandry more concisely as his study of the tribal relationships throughout the Sahara has been profound, but I jumped in when I saw your name come up.
Havent seen you here that much lately so glad to see you!!

All the best,
Jim

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but to be honest I'm pretty hazy on any anything north of the Tuareg as evidenced by my previous lazy gaff regarding Morocco and the Kabyles.

The Maliki school is pretty interesting in Sunni Islam though. Not to be confused with Malekite Christians, in Islam it refers to the rite started by Malik ibn Anas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_ibn_Anas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maliki

Going back to the topic of the flyssa and potential relations with other weapons in the region. I think part of the Moroccan confusion may have been because of a (perceived) similar culture among the Shilha of the Atlas mountains. Stone may have simply not realized the distinctions between the different Berber groups in the Atlas mountains.

Actually I'd be interested to see a Shilha sword for comparison. I don't suppose anyone has one or has even seen one?

Cheers,

Iain

7th January 2012, 03:59 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,469	Emanuel, I think the connection presuming links between the Iflissen tribal component of the Berbers of Kabylia, actually in NE Algeria and Morocco may stem from misstatements in Stone for one instance. He inadvertantly identified the flyssa as Moroccan, when these are distinctly an Algerian form attributed to the Kabyles. Apparantly these regions in thier religion follow Sunni Islam but with the Malekite rite which is primarily centered in Morocco. Perhaps somehow this religious and cultural connection, along with the fact that the broader Maghrebi designation included both Algeria and Morocco led to the misperception. The flyssa itself is a perplexing weapon and its origins, both timewise and from where both the subject of many years of debate. Personally I favor the idea that these distinct swords evolved from Turkish yataghan forms and while examples typically are from mid 19th century, may have existed up to a hundred years earlier. One of the only focused studies on these is : "Sabre Kabyles Etude des Flissa, du Musee de ''Homme" Camille LaCoste-Dujardin, 'Journal de la Societe des Africanistes' XXVIII, 1958 The author observes the refitting of yataghan blades in Algiers and Oran which were mounted with Kabyle type scabbards. The acquisition of a sword for young Kabyle men was a sort of 'rite of passage', and while the familiar 'flyssa' was of course typically seen, the Ottoman yataghan was also much admired and sought after. There are remarkable similarities of course between various straight backed, deep bellied yataghans and the flissa. The needle type point that is also typical recalls those of Circassian and Tatar sabres, with these groups profoundly represented among Ottoman forces. I am simply adding this detail for source material for those interested in the 'flyssa' and would point out that much of the material compiled on these has been tremendously augmented by the work you have done and contributed in the many discussions we've had on them here. All the best, Jim

13th January 2012, 03:14 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks Jim ! Trust McDougall to clear things up Warm regards, Emanuel

13th January 2012, 04:56 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,469	You bet Emanuel, and thanks for saying that Actually Iain would have been able to respond to this quandry more concisely as his study of the tribal relationships throughout the Sahara has been profound, but I jumped in when I saw your name come up. Havent seen you here that much lately so glad to see you!! All the best, Jim