Khanda Questions

ariel · 6th January 2012, 07:55 PM

Which one do you refer to?

Tim Simmons · 6th January 2012, 07:57 PM

Certainly not yours, rather nice.

Jens Nordlunde · 6th January 2012, 09:34 PM

Thank you Ariel

.
I like your pictures a lot

I like your sword, but it is hardly to compare to the one in question, or what do you think?
How long is your sword?
Jens

ariel · 6th January 2012, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Thank you Ariel

.
I like your pictures a lot

I like your sword, but it is hardly to compare to the one in question, or what do you think?
How long is your sword?
Jens

Thanks.
The blade ( straight line) 29.5", narrowest part 2", widest 2 3/4"

Thus, the blade of Archer's one was shortened by ~ 6.5", and the widest part might have been lost. Still, would be interesting to know the width of the proximal and the distant parts of his blade.

Archer, am I wrong, or is it wootz?

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2012, 12:24 AM

An interesting khanda Steve, and these kinds of composite working life weapons are intriguing as the history behind these refurbishings often can have interesting stories. Obviously a quite old Rajput basket hilt in my opinion, and the blade as noted most curious.

To clarify, the term 'firangi' is just that, a colloquial term used to describe various Indian swords mounted with European or 'foreign' blades. While the term has become strongly permeated into the vernacular to describe these Hindu basket hilts, it is not technically a sword type. To me the term is very much parallel to 'scimitar' as far as in descriptive use for a type of sword.

I dont believe this is a European blade, but clearly it has experienced some dramatic events, the shortening and remounting notwithstanding.
Runjeet, interesting detail on the political ramifications possible for sword compromising for purposes of heirloom or keepsake purposes. Is this bending or folding of blades a matter of fact, or hypothetical? I know that swords held in armouries or arsenals were often dismantled and hilts and blades kept separate, apparantly to prevent ready arming of insurgents in times of unrest and volatility, not unusual in many periods and regions.

The idea of deliberately damaging, or 'killing' a sword by severely bending the blade came from Middle Ages Europe when these weapons were buried with warriors, and they had to be rendered 'dead' to go with them to the next world. I had not heard of any such ritual with Indian swords...however, it is known that with Rajputs there was a degree of sword worship much as had descended from the Scythian tribes.

The damage to this blade does seem deliberate as it seems strategic rather than accidental, so it is interesting to consider why. The shortening of the blade seems unusual also as these khanda were heavier slashing weapons favoring blades with long reach.
There may be the possibility of naval use with Mahrattas or perhaps even more remotely possible, pirates who plied waters in regions of the Malabar trade.

The Islamic cartouche is inscribed in imitation of those on higher end blades and added later, probably at the time this blade was refurbished and mounted. This may have been of course by an illiterate workman who tried to copy these type cartouches, but would be hard to translate as it is not necessarily accurately transcribed.

Stan S. · 7th January 2012, 12:26 AM

Yep, looks like it was bent and straightened. Shame...

Also looks like it could be wootz. Could this bending be a result of a genuine battle damage?

I too have a sosun pattah in my collection (northern form) with thin double fullers running 3/4 of blade's length. I'll have to go through my old pictures to find a couple that I can share.

Archer: I would advise you against attempting to straighten the blade or urge to at least be VERY careful. Based on your 2nd set of pictures, I can see cracks forming at the points of bending. Chances are that any tempering with these areas may cause additional damage.

ariel · 7th January 2012, 05:11 PM

The jagged, ragged damage is likely due to the inherent weakness of the inhomogeneous "damascus" wootz structure. I do not think that good monosteel would produce it.

BTW, why do we think the blade was remounted? Looks to me like a perfect fit with the handle. Is the rivet new(er)?

archer · 7th January 2012, 08:52 PM

The riveting compares in age with the non silvered basket design in the same area. I'd have to say it's likely original. The blade width at the proximal in the hilt end is1 1/4 inches and the distal greatest width is 1 1/8 inches. However much was removed its unlikely that more fullers existed. the blade is damascus, but, of low contrast. The light very fine pitting hides most of it form view. The very grey daylight were currently having in Alaska doesn't help.
At one point, I had a fleeting thought the damage might have been from a sword catcher. I have ruled that out and feel the damage was intentionally done perhaps against a round rod.
Thank you all again. Steve

archer · 6th January 2012, 09:57 PM

Interesting information in your responses . Particularly the political issue Runjeet. I don't see where billeting was done but those areas may well be weaker allowing easier bends. I'll try straightening later with a weighted rubber hammer. Photos show both sides of the major bend sites. Urdu or Hindi?
Thank you all, Steve

7th January 2012, 08:52 PM	#8
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Data The riveting compares in age with the non silvered basket design in the same area. I'd have to say it's likely original. The blade width at the proximal in the hilt end is1 1/4 inches and the distal greatest width is 1 1/8 inches. However much was removed its unlikely that more fullers existed. the blade is damascus, but, of low contrast. The light very fine pitting hides most of it form view. The very grey daylight were currently having in Alaska doesn't help. At one point, I had a fleeting thought the damage might have been from a sword catcher. I have ruled that out and feel the damage was intentionally done perhaps against a round rod. Thank you all again. Steve

6th January 2012, 09:57 PM	#9
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	A few more photos Interesting information in your responses . Particularly the political issue Runjeet. I don't see where billeting was done but those areas may well be weaker allowing easier bends. I'll try straightening later with a weighted rubber hammer. Photos show both sides of the major bend sites. Urdu or Hindi? Thank you all, Steve Attached Images

6th January 2012, 07:55 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Which one do you refer to?

6th January 2012, 07:57 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Certainly not yours, rather nice.

6th January 2012, 09:34 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Ariel . I like your pictures a lot I like your sword, but it is hardly to compare to the one in question, or what do you think? How long is your sword? Jens

7th January 2012, 12:24 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	An interesting khanda Steve, and these kinds of composite working life weapons are intriguing as the history behind these refurbishings often can have interesting stories. Obviously a quite old Rajput basket hilt in my opinion, and the blade as noted most curious. To clarify, the term 'firangi' is just that, a colloquial term used to describe various Indian swords mounted with European or 'foreign' blades. While the term has become strongly permeated into the vernacular to describe these Hindu basket hilts, it is not technically a sword type. To me the term is very much parallel to 'scimitar' as far as in descriptive use for a type of sword. I dont believe this is a European blade, but clearly it has experienced some dramatic events, the shortening and remounting notwithstanding. Runjeet, interesting detail on the political ramifications possible for sword compromising for purposes of heirloom or keepsake purposes. Is this bending or folding of blades a matter of fact, or hypothetical? I know that swords held in armouries or arsenals were often dismantled and hilts and blades kept separate, apparantly to prevent ready arming of insurgents in times of unrest and volatility, not unusual in many periods and regions. The idea of deliberately damaging, or 'killing' a sword by severely bending the blade came from Middle Ages Europe when these weapons were buried with warriors, and they had to be rendered 'dead' to go with them to the next world. I had not heard of any such ritual with Indian swords...however, it is known that with Rajputs there was a degree of sword worship much as had descended from the Scythian tribes. The damage to this blade does seem deliberate as it seems strategic rather than accidental, so it is interesting to consider why. The shortening of the blade seems unusual also as these khanda were heavier slashing weapons favoring blades with long reach. There may be the possibility of naval use with Mahrattas or perhaps even more remotely possible, pirates who plied waters in regions of the Malabar trade. The Islamic cartouche is inscribed in imitation of those on higher end blades and added later, probably at the time this blade was refurbished and mounted. This may have been of course by an illiterate workman who tried to copy these type cartouches, but would be hard to translate as it is not necessarily accurately transcribed.

7th January 2012, 12:26 AM	#6
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Yep, looks like it was bent and straightened. Shame... Also looks like it could be wootz. Could this bending be a result of a genuine battle damage? I too have a sosun pattah in my collection (northern form) with thin double fullers running 3/4 of blade's length. I'll have to go through my old pictures to find a couple that I can share. Archer: I would advise you against attempting to straighten the blade or urge to at least be VERY careful. Based on your 2nd set of pictures, I can see cracks forming at the points of bending. Chances are that any tempering with these areas may cause additional damage.

7th January 2012, 05:11 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The jagged, ragged damage is likely due to the inherent weakness of the inhomogeneous "damascus" wootz structure. I do not think that good monosteel would produce it. BTW, why do we think the blade was remounted? Looks to me like a perfect fit with the handle. Is the rivet new(er)?