SPANISH MIQUELET GUN NEED HELP

[Cerjak]

Hello from France
Happy new year to everybody!
Who can help for this spanish miquelet gun.
On the barrel Agustin Bustindui Ruiz I suppose the maker & EIBAR ANO 1785 & rampant lion
The lock with a covered crown above GA BI OLA .
Trigger guard with BAS CA RAN

Hopping that somebody can tell me more about this gun

[Fernando K]

Hola:

Los tres autores están citados por LAVIN, James, en su "A History of Spanish Firearms":
GABIOLA, Juan Andrés Lockmaker of Eibar. He is mentioned in Jovellanos DIARY as being a dinner guest in the home of Juan Esteban Bustindui on 21 August 1791.
BUSTINDUI RUIS, Agustín. A barrel maker of Eibar and possibily the son of Agustin Bustindui.

La llave (lock) es del tipo llamado "a las tres modas": El sistema de disparo es el del miquelet, el rastrillo (frizen) y la cazoleta (pan) con la brida (bridge) fija ("estribillo", en español) son tomadas de la llave(lock) a la francesa y el muelle del rastrillo (frizen) está tomado de la llave (lock) a la romana

Desde Argentina, afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hi

The three authors are cited by Lavin, James, in his "A History of Spanish Firearms"
Gabiola, Juan Andrés Lockmaker of Eibar. He is as Mentioned in Jovellanos DIARY dinner Being a guest in the home of Juan Esteban Bustindui on 21 August 1791.
RUIS BUSTINDUI Augustine. A barrel maker of Eibar and possibily the are of Agustin Bustindui.

The Key (lock) is of the type called "the three trends": The trigger system is the Miquelet rake (frize) and pan (bread) with clamp (bridge) fixed ("chorus" in Spanish ) are taken from the key (lock) to the French and the spring rake (frize) is taken from the key (lock) to the Roman

From Argentina, affectionately. Fernando K

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum Cerjack,
Nice 'escopeta' you got there.
While Gabiola and Bustindui were in service around 1800, Bascaran is the name of various Eibar (Basque) gunmakers who were active by 1880-1900; therefore the trigger guard must have been a later addition.

[rickystl]

Hi Cerjack. Agree with Fernando. Very nice Escopeta. I really like the lock on this piece. Do you have a photo of the buttplate? Thanks, Rick.

[Fernando K]

Hola:

Ramiro Larrañaga, en "Sintesis Histórica de la Amería Vasca", en página 120/1:
BASCARAN, Fernando de. Chispero (lockmaker). Eibar. 1795
BASCARAN, Manuel de. Maestro armero de Eibar, 1816/29. Junto a la marca particular también estampó la flor de lis y esa figura de cruz tan particular que también distinguía a otros armeros de la comarca así como el león rampante. Referencias: NEW STOCKEL (Instituto Suizo de Armas Antiguas)

Y en página 205 detalla otros:

Domingo de. Aparejero. Eibar y Placencia, 1750/62
Fernando de. Chispero (lockmaker) Eibar. 1795
Francisco de Aparejero. Eibar. 1762
Manuel. Armero. Eibar. 186/29

Disiento con Fernando. El guardamonte parece ser original. Habría que contrastarlo con el resto de las fornituras.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hi

Larrañaga Ramiro in "historical synthesis of the Basque Ameria" on page 120 / 1:
BASC, Ferdinand. Chispero (lockmaker). Eibar. 1795
BASC, Manuel de. Master gunsmith Eibar, 1816/29. Along with the particular brand also stamped the fleur de lis and a cross that figure so unique that also distinguished other dealers in the region and the lion rampant. References: NEW Stockel (Swiss Institute of Ancient Weapons)

And on page 205 lists others:

Sunday. Aparejero. Eibar and Placencia, 1750/62
Fernando de. Chispero (lockmaker) Eibar. 1795
Aparejero Francisco. Eibar. 1762
Manuel. Armero. Eibar. 186/29

I disagree with Fernando. The trigger guard appears to be original. Should be contrasted with the rest of the trimmings.

Affectionately. Fernando K

[fernando]

Muy bien Fernando K,
Gracias por su correccion
I stand corrected .

The thing is, i didn't find BASCARAN in Lavin's work, as first suggested:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Los tres autores están citados por LAVIN, James, en su "A History of Spanish Firearms":
The three authors are cited by Lavin, James, in his "A History of Spanish Firearms"

As also lso in a website dedicated to Eibar gunsmiths i found three BASCARAN, all having been in action around 1880.
http://www.jmfirearmscollection.com/?MW=3&COD=1&P=E
I assume now that my research wasn't complete.
In this case Cerjak, you have an added value in your escopeta, with all parts being from the same period.

[Cerjak]

Thank you both, Fernando and Fernado K your answers are enlightening and appreciated
For the Trigger guard it seems to be the original one
I have a second one, bought from the same collection and I would like if possible have your expert opinion on it .
The stock is different ,on the barrel BVSTUINDI UBARA and lock GVU??S
Thank you again for your help and have a nice weekend.

CERJAK

[Fernando K]

Estimado Fernando:

Debo asumir que yo también cometí errores. Muchas gracias.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

[fernando]

Hi Cerjak,
Il faut faire la difference
Fernando K is an expert and fernando (without K) is only a small curious collector
The Bustuindi with a rampart lion is Juan Esteban, an outstanding smith, mentioned as so by Jovellanos when he visited his home in 1791 (quote Lavin).
The other two marks (UBARRA? and GVU..S) are not listed in Lavin's book, neither within my reach.
Maybe Fernando K can trace them.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Cerjak,
Il faut faire la difference
Fernando K is an expert and fernando (without K) is only a small curious collector
The Bustuindi with a rampart lion is Juan Esteban, an outstanding smith, mentioned as so by Jovellanos when he visited his home in 1791 (quote Lavin).
The other two marks (UBARRA? and GVU..S) are not listed in Lavin's book, neither within my reach.
Maybe Fernando K can trace them.

Hi Fernendo,
Je vois que vous parlez le français..
I 'm wondering if those escopeta are hard to find in the collector market ,do you have any idea about their value ,I don't want to sell those guns but it is always good to know.
I'm sorry for my poor English but it is the best I can.

Cerjak

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Hi Fernendo,
Je vois que vous parlez le français..

Un petit peu

Originally Posted by Cerjak

...I 'm wondering if those escopeta are hard to find in the collector market ...

... Comme ci comme ça ... so so. You do find them, if you look for them.

Originally Posted by Cerjak

... do you have any idea about their value ,I don't want to sell those guns but it is always good to know...

Sorry, no price evaluations are allowed in this discussion forum.

Originally Posted by Cerjak

... I'm sorry for my poor English but it is the best I can.

Don't worry, is well good enough.

[Fernando K]

Hola
A pesar de las palabras de Fernando, no soy un experto. Solo soy un modesto coleccionista y un amante de la historia de las armas.
En cuanto a la marca, dice Y B A R R A. Respecto a la tercera marca, no la puedo descifrar.
Te sugiero dirigirte a Juan L. Calvó, que vive en España, y es autor de varios libros y artículos sobre el tema, y que tiene una página:

www.catalogaciondearmas.com

Desde Argentina, afectuosamente. Fernando

Hello
Despite the words of Fernando, I'm not an expert. I'm just a humble collector and a lover of the history of arms.
As for the brand, says Y B A R R A. Regarding the third mark, I can not decipher.
I suggest you go to John L. Calvo, who lives in Spain, and is the author of several books and articles on the subject, and has a page:

www.catalogaciondearmas.com

From Argentina, affectionately. Fernando K

[Fernando K]

Hola:

Ramiro Larrañaga (opus citatus), pagina 218/19:

Ibarra (Ybarra), andrés de. Chispero (lockmaker). Eibar. 1762
Francisco de. Maestro examinador de Placencia hasta 1850
Francisco de. Chispero (lockmaker). Placencia.1820
José de. Eibar.1821 Pistolas de chispa.
Miguel Antonio de.1795

Afectuosamente. Fernando

Hi

Ramiro Larrañaga (opus citatus), page 218/19:

Ibarra (Ybarra), Andres. Chispero (lockmaker). Eibar. 1762
Francisco de. Master Placencia examiner until 1850
Francisco de. Chispero (lockmaker). Placencia.1820
José de. Guns Eibar.1821 spark.
Miguel Antonio de.1795

Affectionately. Fernando

[Cerjak]

Fernando&Fernando K

again thank you ! It is nice I was making many reseachs without any result and now I have many informations.
I decide to clean those escopeta 2 weeks ago and when I was cleaning the barrel the name of AGUSTO Bust ??? R?? appears and after searching in google in found one thread from vikings sword relating one miquelet pistol who had help me to find the full inscription "Agustin Bustindui Ruiz" so after with your help I had the full identification for those "escopeta" ( I was even not knowing the name)
It is funny now if you search inggoogle picture after BUSTINDUI ESCOPETA you will find some pics about my gun but it will be hepfull for the next people who will need to identify similar gun and this it is because of your extensive knowledge.
I have 2 other miquelet guns one with a lock with baccari sign and an other I think from sardenia I will be verry happy if you could help me again.
Now I just have to find the last mark in the second escopeta but difficult to read(lock GVU??S)
Muchas gracias.

[Fernando K]

Hola Cerjak

Después de mucho mirar, me parece que el punzón dice:


G U I

S A S

O L A

Afectuosamente. Fernando K


Hello Cerjak

After much looking, I think the punch says:


G U I

S A S

O L A

[Cerjak]

Fernando K

You are right it must be GUIASOLA who was working in EIBAR because the two guns was from the same family collection and the first one was from EIBAR , now We have the full identification!
I suppose that you know this site..
http://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dew...d/miqulet.html
From this site :
"The miquelet lock shown at the left (figure1) was made by Guisasola, probably in Eibar, Spain, circa 1800. It is of the classic patilla style most often encountered in Spanish Colonial America. "
Thank you for your help and research.

Kind regards

Cerjak

[Fernando K]

Hi, Cerjak

Ramiro Larrañaga (opus citatus) Pag. 217/8

G U I S A S O L A:
Antonio de. Cajero. Eibar.1762
Antonio de. Escopetero. Eibar 1790/833. Padre de Pedro.
Felipe de. Vergara. En 1795 fué a Asturias
Félix de. Eibar. En 1794 fué a Asturias
José de. Eibar. 1794. Fué a Asturias
Juan Bautista de. 1795. Fué a Asturias
Martín de. 1795. Fué a Asturias.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

[cannonmn]

I've studied Spanish artillery and am in fact the co-founder of the online group SARA (Spanish Artillery Research Associates which anyone is welcome to join) at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spanishartillery/

but I know very little about Spanish small arms. This piece looks like a very fine, high-grade sporting arm, given the extra embellishments, the once gold-filled touchmarks, etc.

Does anyone know if the maker(s) of this elaborate firearm also made plain muskets for the Spanish Army? Are there any contracts of record between the maker and the Spanish crown?

[Fernando K]

Los modelos reglamentarios o de ordenanza eran producidos por las fábricas, bajo el control estatal. Los ejemplares que se han subido al foro son producidos para el mercado civil. Las fábricas estatales estaban en Eibar, Placencia, Oviedo, etc. Había también fundiciones oficiales o estatales para la producción de cañones de bronce.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hello, Cannonmn

The ordinance or regulatory models were produced by factories under state control. The specimens that have been uploaded to the forum are produced for the civilian market. The state-owned factories were in Eibar, Placencia, Oviedo, and so on. There were also official or state foundries for the production of bronze barrels.

Affectionately. Fernando K

[cannonmn]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Los modelos reglamentarios o de ordenanza eran producidos por las fábricas, bajo el control estatal. Los ejemplares que se han subido al foro son producidos para el mercado civil. Las fábricas estatales estaban en Eibar, Placencia, Oviedo, etc. Había también fundiciones oficiales o estatales para la producción de cañones de bronce.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hello, Cannonmn

The ordinance or regulatory models were produced by factories under state control. The specimens that have been uploaded to the forum are produced for the civilian market. The state-owned factories were in Eibar, Placencia, Oviedo, and so on. There were also official or state foundries for the production of bronze barrels.

Affectionately. Fernando K

FK, thanks, I think you have answered my question but the way it is stated I am not 100% certain of the meaning. You are saying that Spanish Army weapons were made by factories controlled by the Crown (monarchy) under the king, which in the US we would call "arsenals."

Question 1: I think you are saying that the weapons posted, since they are NOT military, were NOT made by the military arsenals. Is that correct?

My confusion I think comes from the fact that in the US, quite often non-government, private or public companies or corporations were involved in manufacturing small arms for the US Army.

Question 2: Therefore I wondered if "private" companies in Spain also produced weapons for the Spanish Army. I think you are telling me that they did not, neither at the time the pictured pieces were made, nor later. Is that correct?

[Fernando K]

Hola, Cannonmn

Para instalar una analogía, es lo mismo que sucede con los armeros que producían el rifle Kentucky o de Pennsylvania, respecto que los modelos reglamentarios, por ejemplo, el modelo 1803 de rifle producido en Harper·s Ferry.

Ramiro Larrañaga, en su obra "Sintesis Histórica de la Armeria Vasca", se ha ocupado, en un trabajo improbo de todas las referencias que se encuentran en todos los archivos, museos, etc. de España, en todo lo que se refiera a los cotratos de la Corona con los armeros, desde 1400 en adelante.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hello, Cannonmn

To establish an analogy, the same thing happens with dealers who produced the Kentucky or Pennsylvania rifle, concerning ordnance models, for example, the model 1803 rifle produced in Harper · s Ferry.

Ramiro Larrañaga, in his "History of the Armory Synthesis Vasca", has been busy doing a great job with all references found in all the archives, museums, etc. of Spain, in all that relates to the Crown contracts with the (private)gun dealers, from 1400 onwards.

Affectionately. Fernando K

[cannonmn]

FK, thanks, I will leave here believing that small arms for the Spanish Army were made only at Royal Army arsenals, and civilian makers did not make small arms for the Spanish Army. Appreciate the clarification.