Khanda Questions

archer · 6th January 2012, 02:49 AM

Questions, regarding this badly abused blade. Is this an Indian or Firangi blade? The blade is short 23 inches and has been reshaped, etc. The blade shows two definite sharp bends and realignment. Were Indian swords ever ritually bent and purposely damaged?
Traces of silver work are evident all exposed areas of the basket are engraved. Was this blade just a bad marriage?
Interested to hear your comments. Steve

Henk · 6th January 2012, 10:48 AM

If i recall well, it is an Indian sword called Firangi. Firangi means foreigner or abroad refering to the blade wich is mostly an imported blade mounted with a hilt like your sword.
I have a rapier blade mounted with a tulwar like hilt with that extraordinary long spike. The spike on mine Firangi had been cut off

Runjeet Singh · 6th January 2012, 11:05 AM

Steve,

As far as I know Indian swords were never ritually bent. However, due to certain political events in India in the late 19th century and early 20th Century, swords and weapons became a sensitive subject in Indian law. This led to the Indian public becoming nervous about keeping such items.

I believe swords blades were bent, or 'folded', and swords kept in this state to show the authorities they were kept as a keepsake and not for use.

Indians also went to the extremes of breaking the blades, the more determined or educated would dismantle the sword and keep the blade separately.

Hope this helps!
Runjeet

Stan S. · 6th January 2012, 03:05 PM

That’s an awesome sword. I too was bidding on it on eBay a couple of weeks ago and had the 2nd highest bid. You outbid me by a buck or two. At least it’s nice to know that it went to a fellow forumite.

Not a firanghi in my opinion, as the blade is clearly not of European manufacture due to a cartouche being in what looks like Arabic(?). Not a khanda either. It is definitely a cut down blade, and is it my imagination or is there a slight down curve to it? If so, it could indicate the sword originally being either a kirach or most likely a sosun pattah with an Indian basket hilt.

On the subject of bends... Are you sure the blade had been bent and straightened? I can see the areas of discoloration you are referring to but I don't really see any indication of external damage from your pictures. If the blade is in fact straight, these could be forge seams between billets of steel used to make the blade.

Please send me a PM if you ever decide to part with this sword.

Dom · 6th January 2012, 03:42 PM

Hi Steve
attempted translation from the Arabic language, has failed

this may be Urdu, and other Indian languages

à +

Dom

ariel · 6th January 2012, 05:04 PM

The fuller runs into the tip: thus, the blade was shortened. I also seem to see the downward sloping of the distal part of the blade. If so, and if we put these two together, I would guess it is a reshaped Sosun Patta of Indian form.
I have a similar one which is a carbon copy of the one in Leeds Royal Armoury. There it is defined as a 17th cen. Solingen blade specifically produced for export. Mine even has european markings. The "islamic" markings on the presented one might be a later addition.

Jens Nordlunde · 6th January 2012, 07:19 PM

The blade seems to have been shortened by 20 to 30 cm, or maybe a bit less.

When did you last see a Sosun Patta with a fuller, or a Kirach for that matter?

I am not quite sure what I think of the blade, but it is, most certainly quite different form the blades we mostly see – and I have some difficulties to see where the European blade form comes in.

ariel · 6th January 2012, 08:26 PM

Your wish is my command:-)

Here are quick pic of my Sosun Patta.
The pics of the one in Leeds are somewhere in my archives but they are horribly messed up. If any of the Forumites has a chance of visiting LRA, I would be most grateful for photographing it.

Tim Simmons · 6th January 2012, 08:50 PM

Not my area but from a craftsmans view there appears to be rather a gauche match of blade to handle?

ariel · 6th January 2012, 08:55 PM

Which one do you refer to?

Tim Simmons · 6th January 2012, 08:57 PM

Certainly not yours, rather nice.

Jens Nordlunde · 6th January 2012, 10:34 PM

Thank you Ariel

.
I like your pictures a lot

I like your sword, but it is hardly to compare to the one in question, or what do you think?
How long is your sword?
Jens

archer · 6th January 2012, 10:57 PM

Interesting information in your responses . Particularly the political issue Runjeet. I don't see where billeting was done but those areas may well be weaker allowing easier bends. I'll try straightening later with a weighted rubber hammer. Photos show both sides of the major bend sites. Urdu or Hindi?
Thank you all, Steve

ariel · 7th January 2012, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Thank you Ariel

.
I like your pictures a lot

I like your sword, but it is hardly to compare to the one in question, or what do you think?
How long is your sword?
Jens

Thanks.
The blade ( straight line) 29.5", narrowest part 2", widest 2 3/4"

Thus, the blade of Archer's one was shortened by ~ 6.5", and the widest part might have been lost. Still, would be interesting to know the width of the proximal and the distant parts of his blade.

Archer, am I wrong, or is it wootz?

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2012, 01:24 AM

An interesting khanda Steve, and these kinds of composite working life weapons are intriguing as the history behind these refurbishings often can have interesting stories. Obviously a quite old Rajput basket hilt in my opinion, and the blade as noted most curious.

To clarify, the term 'firangi' is just that, a colloquial term used to describe various Indian swords mounted with European or 'foreign' blades. While the term has become strongly permeated into the vernacular to describe these Hindu basket hilts, it is not technically a sword type. To me the term is very much parallel to 'scimitar' as far as in descriptive use for a type of sword.

I dont believe this is a European blade, but clearly it has experienced some dramatic events, the shortening and remounting notwithstanding.
Runjeet, interesting detail on the political ramifications possible for sword compromising for purposes of heirloom or keepsake purposes. Is this bending or folding of blades a matter of fact, or hypothetical? I know that swords held in armouries or arsenals were often dismantled and hilts and blades kept separate, apparantly to prevent ready arming of insurgents in times of unrest and volatility, not unusual in many periods and regions.

The idea of deliberately damaging, or 'killing' a sword by severely bending the blade came from Middle Ages Europe when these weapons were buried with warriors, and they had to be rendered 'dead' to go with them to the next world. I had not heard of any such ritual with Indian swords...however, it is known that with Rajputs there was a degree of sword worship much as had descended from the Scythian tribes.

The damage to this blade does seem deliberate as it seems strategic rather than accidental, so it is interesting to consider why. The shortening of the blade seems unusual also as these khanda were heavier slashing weapons favoring blades with long reach.
There may be the possibility of naval use with Mahrattas or perhaps even more remotely possible, pirates who plied waters in regions of the Malabar trade.

The Islamic cartouche is inscribed in imitation of those on higher end blades and added later, probably at the time this blade was refurbished and mounted. This may have been of course by an illiterate workman who tried to copy these type cartouches, but would be hard to translate as it is not necessarily accurately transcribed.

Stan S. · 7th January 2012, 01:26 AM

Yep, looks like it was bent and straightened. Shame...

Also looks like it could be wootz. Could this bending be a result of a genuine battle damage?

I too have a sosun pattah in my collection (northern form) with thin double fullers running 3/4 of blade's length. I'll have to go through my old pictures to find a couple that I can share.

Archer: I would advise you against attempting to straighten the blade or urge to at least be VERY careful. Based on your 2nd set of pictures, I can see cracks forming at the points of bending. Chances are that any tempering with these areas may cause additional damage.

ariel · 7th January 2012, 06:11 PM

The jagged, ragged damage is likely due to the inherent weakness of the inhomogeneous "damascus" wootz structure. I do not think that good monosteel would produce it.

BTW, why do we think the blade was remounted? Looks to me like a perfect fit with the handle. Is the rivet new(er)?

archer · 7th January 2012, 09:52 PM

The riveting compares in age with the non silvered basket design in the same area. I'd have to say it's likely original. The blade width at the proximal in the hilt end is1 1/4 inches and the distal greatest width is 1 1/8 inches. However much was removed its unlikely that more fullers existed. the blade is damascus, but, of low contrast. The light very fine pitting hides most of it form view. The very grey daylight were currently having in Alaska doesn't help.
At one point, I had a fleeting thought the damage might have been from a sword catcher. I have ruled that out and feel the damage was intentionally done perhaps against a round rod.
Thank you all again. Steve

6th January 2012, 02:49 AM	#1
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Khanda Questions Questions, regarding this badly abused blade. Is this an Indian or Firangi blade? The blade is short 23 inches and has been reshaped, etc. The blade shows two definite sharp bends and realignment. Were Indian swords ever ritually bent and purposely damaged? Traces of silver work are evident all exposed areas of the basket are engraved. Was this blade just a bad marriage? Interested to hear your comments. Steve Attached Images Last edited by archer; 6th January 2012 at 03:00 AM.

6th January 2012, 03:42 PM	#5
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi Steve attempted translation from the Arabic language, has failed this may be Urdu, and other Indian languages à + Dom Attached Images

6th January 2012, 08:26 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Your wish is my command:-) Here are quick pic of my Sosun Patta. The pics of the one in Leeds are somewhere in my archives but they are horribly messed up. If any of the Forumites has a chance of visiting LRA, I would be most grateful for photographing it. Attached Images

6th January 2012, 10:57 PM	#13
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	A few more photos Interesting information in your responses . Particularly the political issue Runjeet. I don't see where billeting was done but those areas may well be weaker allowing easier bends. I'll try straightening later with a weighted rubber hammer. Photos show both sides of the major bend sites. Urdu or Hindi? Thank you all, Steve Attached Images

7th January 2012, 09:52 PM	#18
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Data The riveting compares in age with the non silvered basket design in the same area. I'd have to say it's likely original. The blade width at the proximal in the hilt end is1 1/4 inches and the distal greatest width is 1 1/8 inches. However much was removed its unlikely that more fullers existed. the blade is damascus, but, of low contrast. The light very fine pitting hides most of it form view. The very grey daylight were currently having in Alaska doesn't help. At one point, I had a fleeting thought the damage might have been from a sword catcher. I have ruled that out and feel the damage was intentionally done perhaps against a round rod. Thank you all again. Steve

6th January 2012, 10:48 AM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	If i recall well, it is an Indian sword called Firangi. Firangi means foreigner or abroad refering to the blade wich is mostly an imported blade mounted with a hilt like your sword. I have a rapier blade mounted with a tulwar like hilt with that extraordinary long spike. The spike on mine Firangi had been cut off

6th January 2012, 11:05 AM	#3
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Steve, As far as I know Indian swords were never ritually bent. However, due to certain political events in India in the late 19th century and early 20th Century, swords and weapons became a sensitive subject in Indian law. This led to the Indian public becoming nervous about keeping such items. I believe swords blades were bent, or 'folded', and swords kept in this state to show the authorities they were kept as a keepsake and not for use. Indians also went to the extremes of breaking the blades, the more determined or educated would dismantle the sword and keep the blade separately. Hope this helps! Runjeet

6th January 2012, 03:05 PM	#4
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	That’s an awesome sword. I too was bidding on it on eBay a couple of weeks ago and had the 2nd highest bid. You outbid me by a buck or two. At least it’s nice to know that it went to a fellow forumite. Not a firanghi in my opinion, as the blade is clearly not of European manufacture due to a cartouche being in what looks like Arabic(?). Not a khanda either. It is definitely a cut down blade, and is it my imagination or is there a slight down curve to it? If so, it could indicate the sword originally being either a kirach or most likely a sosun pattah with an Indian basket hilt. On the subject of bends... Are you sure the blade had been bent and straightened? I can see the areas of discoloration you are referring to but I don't really see any indication of external damage from your pictures. If the blade is in fact straight, these could be forge seams between billets of steel used to make the blade. Please send me a PM if you ever decide to part with this sword.

6th January 2012, 05:04 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The fuller runs into the tip: thus, the blade was shortened. I also seem to see the downward sloping of the distal part of the blade. If so, and if we put these two together, I would guess it is a reshaped Sosun Patta of Indian form. I have a similar one which is a carbon copy of the one in Leeds Royal Armoury. There it is defined as a 17th cen. Solingen blade specifically produced for export. Mine even has european markings. The "islamic" markings on the presented one might be a later addition.

6th January 2012, 07:19 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The blade seems to have been shortened by 20 to 30 cm, or maybe a bit less. When did you last see a Sosun Patta with a fuller, or a Kirach for that matter? I am not quite sure what I think of the blade, but it is, most certainly quite different form the blades we mostly see – and I have some difficulties to see where the European blade form comes in.

6th January 2012, 08:50 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Not my area but from a craftsmans view there appears to be rather a gauche match of blade to handle?

6th January 2012, 08:55 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Which one do you refer to?

6th January 2012, 08:57 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Certainly not yours, rather nice.

6th January 2012, 10:34 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Ariel . I like your pictures a lot I like your sword, but it is hardly to compare to the one in question, or what do you think? How long is your sword? Jens

7th January 2012, 01:24 AM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,956	An interesting khanda Steve, and these kinds of composite working life weapons are intriguing as the history behind these refurbishings often can have interesting stories. Obviously a quite old Rajput basket hilt in my opinion, and the blade as noted most curious. To clarify, the term 'firangi' is just that, a colloquial term used to describe various Indian swords mounted with European or 'foreign' blades. While the term has become strongly permeated into the vernacular to describe these Hindu basket hilts, it is not technically a sword type. To me the term is very much parallel to 'scimitar' as far as in descriptive use for a type of sword. I dont believe this is a European blade, but clearly it has experienced some dramatic events, the shortening and remounting notwithstanding. Runjeet, interesting detail on the political ramifications possible for sword compromising for purposes of heirloom or keepsake purposes. Is this bending or folding of blades a matter of fact, or hypothetical? I know that swords held in armouries or arsenals were often dismantled and hilts and blades kept separate, apparantly to prevent ready arming of insurgents in times of unrest and volatility, not unusual in many periods and regions. The idea of deliberately damaging, or 'killing' a sword by severely bending the blade came from Middle Ages Europe when these weapons were buried with warriors, and they had to be rendered 'dead' to go with them to the next world. I had not heard of any such ritual with Indian swords...however, it is known that with Rajputs there was a degree of sword worship much as had descended from the Scythian tribes. The damage to this blade does seem deliberate as it seems strategic rather than accidental, so it is interesting to consider why. The shortening of the blade seems unusual also as these khanda were heavier slashing weapons favoring blades with long reach. There may be the possibility of naval use with Mahrattas or perhaps even more remotely possible, pirates who plied waters in regions of the Malabar trade. The Islamic cartouche is inscribed in imitation of those on higher end blades and added later, probably at the time this blade was refurbished and mounted. This may have been of course by an illiterate workman who tried to copy these type cartouches, but would be hard to translate as it is not necessarily accurately transcribed.

7th January 2012, 01:26 AM	#16
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Yep, looks like it was bent and straightened. Shame... Also looks like it could be wootz. Could this bending be a result of a genuine battle damage? I too have a sosun pattah in my collection (northern form) with thin double fullers running 3/4 of blade's length. I'll have to go through my old pictures to find a couple that I can share. Archer: I would advise you against attempting to straighten the blade or urge to at least be VERY careful. Based on your 2nd set of pictures, I can see cracks forming at the points of bending. Chances are that any tempering with these areas may cause additional damage.

7th January 2012, 06:11 PM	#17
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The jagged, ragged damage is likely due to the inherent weakness of the inhomogeneous "damascus" wootz structure. I do not think that good monosteel would produce it. BTW, why do we think the blade was remounted? Looks to me like a perfect fit with the handle. Is the rivet new(er)?