Need Help to Identify Pamor and Tangguh

David · 30th December 2011, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Oh, by tricks is really very very easy

Just curious...what "trick", other than patience and balance, do you believe is being employed here?

Marcokeris · 30th December 2011, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Just curious...what "trick", other than patience and balance, do you believe is being employed here?

Of course... "tricks (IMO) are: patiente, balance and try to increase the bearing surface of the blade...of course.

ivoke · 30th December 2011, 07:33 PM

the carpet, try it on a sheet of glas, much more difficult.

Azman · 30th December 2011, 10:24 PM

Marco,

If it is a trick, then this act should also be possible for any other forms of dagger like weapons. It would be interesting to make this comparison.

David,

I know...it's amazing ins't it. This is where science and mystic converge. I cannot understand how could this happen as it defies the law of physics. With an offset to neutral axis, the CG remains perfectly balance. Once the CG is perfectly balance, it will stand. This can be proven by the coke can trick. This is achieved by adjusting the water content in the coke can to a perfect half volume of the can. You can try this too. Now if this happen to the keris than it's either sheer luck or the empu is so brilliant to forge and hammer the steel in a perfectly balance CG. May be possible in those days...

Thank you Jean,

I kind of suspected this to be blarak ngirid pattern but they don't really look alike. I suppose each one is unique based on the condition and empu that did the work.

Any chance to get the views on my earlier questions on empu and tangguh

Cheers, Azman

Rick · 31st December 2011, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azman

Any chance to get the views on my earlier questions on empu and tangguh

Cheers, Azman

From some pictures ?
Very doubtful .

David · 31st December 2011, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azman

Any chance to get the views on my earlier questions on empu and tangguh

A relatively small number of keris in collections were made by empus. The majority would be village made piece. Even if a keris can be verified as an empu creation, being able to identify the empu who made it would be extremely difficult without some sort of provenance.
Tangguh is a practice which is probably best not being applied to non-keraton keris though in today's world people attempt to apply it to any old keris. Attempting to accurately assess tangguh, even on a keris to which the practice is applicable, is tenuous at best when solely determined by a few internet images. Many of the points required to assess tangguh require having the keris in hand.

A. G. Maisey · 31st December 2011, 05:16 AM

Very nicely put David.

I will not comment on Azman's keris, because I do not have it in my hand, and my opinions formed from the photos could well be incorrect.

However, here are a couple of photos of a a blade that bears some very strong similarities to Azman's keris, and I have had this keris in my hand. It is current era Madura, last half of the 20th century, it is very strong on artistic merit, but it does not go back to the times when it could be dignified with attribution to a named empu. It can be given a tangguh: kamardikan, that is, the period following Indonesian independence.

Azman · 31st December 2011, 03:08 PM

Great thanks David/AG for the excellent rationalization on empu and description of tangguh. In all honesty I don't understand the term empu. I thought it's a name given to a keris maker. From both of your explanation it looks like empu is a very special designatory to a very skillful person.

AG, your keris pamor looks very similar to mine and the blade is in perfect condition. I wonder how do you take care of this blades it looks very new and excellently preserved. I'm really worried looking at my blade as it has sign of pitting corrosion at several location of the blade. Presently, I'm using minyak cendana (a very thick scented oil) to cover the blade monthly. I have bought this from the person who sold me this keris. It's a small bottle. It'll probably last me a year at most. Can you suggest where can I buy this or is there any other alternative. I saw a write up on this from one of our members whom has suggested using conventional lubrication oil of German product that I can't remember the name right now.

Lastly, a very Happy New Year to all team members and I hope this informative site will continue thriving with knowledge of our forefathers ethnographic armament.

30th December 2011, 10:24 PM	#4
Azman Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 15	Marco, If it is a trick, then this act should also be possible for any other forms of dagger like weapons. It would be interesting to make this comparison. David, I know...it's amazing ins't it. This is where science and mystic converge. I cannot understand how could this happen as it defies the law of physics. With an offset to neutral axis, the CG remains perfectly balance. Once the CG is perfectly balance, it will stand. This can be proven by the coke can trick. This is achieved by adjusting the water content in the coke can to a perfect half volume of the can. You can try this too. Now if this happen to the keris than it's either sheer luck or the empu is so brilliant to forge and hammer the steel in a perfectly balance CG. May be possible in those days... Thank you Jean, I kind of suspected this to be blarak ngirid pattern but they don't really look alike. I suppose each one is unique based on the condition and empu that did the work. Any chance to get the views on my earlier questions on empu and tangguh Cheers, Azman Attached Images Last edited by Azman; 30th December 2011 at 10:35 PM.

31st December 2011, 05:16 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Very nicely put David. I will not comment on Azman's keris, because I do not have it in my hand, and my opinions formed from the photos could well be incorrect. However, here are a couple of photos of a a blade that bears some very strong similarities to Azman's keris, and I have had this keris in my hand. It is current era Madura, last half of the 20th century, it is very strong on artistic merit, but it does not go back to the times when it could be dignified with attribution to a named empu. It can be given a tangguh: kamardikan, that is, the period following Indonesian independence. Attached Images

30th December 2011, 07:33 PM	#3
ivoke Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 20	the carpet, try it on a sheet of glas, much more difficult.

31st December 2011, 03:08 PM	#8
Azman Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 15	Great thanks David/AG for the excellent rationalization on empu and description of tangguh. In all honesty I don't understand the term empu. I thought it's a name given to a keris maker. From both of your explanation it looks like empu is a very special designatory to a very skillful person. AG, your keris pamor looks very similar to mine and the blade is in perfect condition. I wonder how do you take care of this blades it looks very new and excellently preserved. I'm really worried looking at my blade as it has sign of pitting corrosion at several location of the blade. Presently, I'm using minyak cendana (a very thick scented oil) to cover the blade monthly. I have bought this from the person who sold me this keris. It's a small bottle. It'll probably last me a year at most. Can you suggest where can I buy this or is there any other alternative. I saw a write up on this from one of our members whom has suggested using conventional lubrication oil of German product that I can't remember the name right now. Lastly, a very Happy New Year to all team members and I hope this informative site will continue thriving with knowledge of our forefathers ethnographic armament.