European bladed takouba

Iain · 22nd December 2011, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

We could be getting uncomfortably close to Richard Widmark and "The Long Ships"?

Must say the reference is going over my head at the moment Tim?

Lee · 22nd December 2011, 10:41 PM

I favor that this takouba has a 14th or 15th century European blade based upon the nature of the marks and the appearance of the background steel.

I have known so many owners certain they had a medieval European blade remounted as a kaskara or takouba. This is the first one, albeit based upon pictures, that I believe in. So my certainty in dismissing these claims on general principal and following the experience of Briggs is now broken.

...Unless it is a brilliant forgery targeted to set me drooling all over myself, but I do not think so.

Iain · 22nd December 2011, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

I favor that this takouba has a 14th or 15th century European blade based upon the nature of the marks and the appearance of the background steel.

I have known so many owners certain they had a medieval European blade remounted as a kaskara or takouba. This is the first one, albeit based upon pictures, that I believe in. So my certainty in dismissing these claims on general principal and following the experience of Briggs is now broken.

...Unless it is a brilliant forgery targeted to set me drooling all over myself, but I do not think so.

Just to add to this... those that know my history with takouba will know I am usually the first to chuck out any ideas of medieval blades and extremely critical of blade marks and perhaps overly prone to suggesting native copies. To be honest I bought this piece with the vague hopes the blade might be 17th century at best. To that end I am not interested dates just for the sake of dates, if anyone really wants to know I bought this because of the pommel...

However I have to say, even with relatively limited experience this one is different, in look, feel and presence.

I'm still intrigued by the second mark, the little sword like one...

Jim McDougall · 23rd December 2011, 01:45 AM

This is absolutely amazing! and well said by Lee...the Holy Grail of takoubas... I am very much in accord with his observations. Actually, there are few who can match Lee's knowledge and expertise on medieval blades and thier metallurgy. The character of the metal and shape of the well worn blades' fullering suggests a quite early blade, and these lattened markings are most certainly European. Actually these 'cross fourchee' correspond to the type markings that were placed on blades in the times when ordnance and war materials were typically controlled by the Bishop in church establishments.
Often these type crosses were a component of the signature or marks of those individuals, and seem to have become adopted singly as a kind of blessing or talismanic imbuement.

The marking itself, much as in the case of most others, is recorded in various compilations of markings as shown along with a date, which is more of a presumed date or period than accurately recorded notation. Most of these are taken from collected weapons and the approximate period of use and so on are captioned with them. These were of course transcribed into many subsequent works of later writers, so while of course plausible, they must be regarded as largely speculative unless they can be proven with wider range of provenanced examples carrying similar marks.

It has been me understanding that the origins of the cross and orb remain unclear as well as the period which they came into use. I believe the Swiss attribution derives most likely from the many Landsknecht blades which had these and other cross oriented markings as previously noted. Most of these of course were probably from German workshops.

How this early blade, which can likely predate the 16th century, perhaps even some time earlier, came to be in Saharan regions can only of course be speculated. It is well worn and clearly an esteemed blade which seems to have likely been handed down for many generations. It has been refurbished by a skilled smith, and the care in emplacing the blade into the bolstering block forte with even the detail of the dentated edge shows it was done for an important figure in my perception. The old style of hilt as noted by Iain suggests its last 'incarnation' was some time ago, and the sword has probably been 'static' for a very long time.

This is a breathtaking sword Iain!!! and all the more so because it is quite literally a historic icon and clearly holds so many of the secrets of these Saharan swords. Thank you so much for sharing it here!!!

All the very best,
Jim

Wodimi · 23rd December 2011, 02:38 AM

Iain, they say in the book clear that they started with the producing of this special mark in 1590. That's why I think, could not be before. They don't say in this book when they stopped with this mark.

Jim McDougall · 23rd December 2011, 08:16 AM

As previously mentioned there is no doubt that the 'forked cross' or cross fourchee appeared encircled as a known blade marking in 1590, but who actually used it remains unknown...it was likely used by a number of makers on blades as was the case with many of these marks. The use of crosses on blades, particularly along with names and invocations was well established with the Vlfberht, Ingelrii and Gicelin blades of Frankish origin from mid 10th to mid 11th centuries, usually encapsulating the words or names. These were typically Greek crosses (potent) with serif type arm ends also known as the kruckenkruez (crutch cross) in later times (Jerusalem cross by the time of the crusades).

In the 6th and 7th centuries crosses were placed on scabbards for the protection of the sword, blessing it and guarding it in battle (Ellis-Davidson, 1962, p.93). It is known that earlier, various symbols including crosses were inlaid in blades usually in gold or brass (latten).

It seems that the nature of the cross appearing on this blade is distinguished by the forked ends as discussed, and that while crosses have appeared on blades over many centuries, this form is somewhat distinctive. These forked ends are seen on cross & orb marks on German blades assessed by Sir James Mann (Wallace Coll. A524, p.269) as 16th century. In previous discussions it has been noted that the forked end cross fourchee is seen on several examples of swords of justice of presumably 16th to 17th century. These are attributed typically to the Vehmic courts or tribunals of Westphalian regions primarily and the cross fourchee occurs between the letters 'S' configured as S+S .
(Sacrificum Sanctum). These courts were well in place by the 15th century having been established in Charlemagnes time.

While this type of cross cannot be firmly attributed to these secretive groups it is interesting to note the use of this type cross. The form can also be associated as previously mentioned to sacredotal instances concerning clerical vestments, and the use of the cross fourchee (or moline) on the chausuble worn. It is interesting that the 'pall cross' or Y shaped cross is seen in paintings of the Crucifixion in the 13th century and later. This perhaps may have been considered in the use of these forked terminals on the cross, of course along with other possibilities.

Whatever the case, it would seem quite likely that this type of cross inlaid in this manner predates the 1590 estimate as discussed in markings references.
Regarding the cross and orb, these date far into antiquity and were well in use in variation from Byzantine times (used even in Egypt by the Coptic Christians) and in Germany in the 15th century in printers guild marks, in Venice on blades in examples c.1520 and 1560 (Boccia & Coelho, 1975).
Interestingly this device was used in the badge of the Carthusian Order in Cologne c. 1084. Cologne of course was the precedent of Solingen in arms production and it seems possible this could be significant in its use by these makers, but clearly speculatively speaking.

In summary, I do not believe that earlier date for this blade than 1590 is compromised at all by the cited markings references shown. Typically these authors simply lifted the material from previous authors thus various entries cannot necessarily be considered supportive of each other. What would be excellent would be finding similar marking on well provenanced example which is dated.

Iain · 23rd December 2011, 10:14 AM

Thanks guys for all the great information and comments.

Wolf,

Thank you for checking for me. Does the book mention a particular maker or workshop that started this mark? Also did I notice on the illustration that there should be sword in the main museum in Berlin with this mark? If so I will try to contact them so we can see it.

A big question still for me is to find something with both marks and a similar blade style. I didn't think this blade style was very typical for late 16th century, but I am no expert.

Anyways, I would not be unhappy with the 1590 date. For me it is still very old and perhaps the oldest complete takouba I have seen.

Jim,

I agree with you completely that sometimes the marking reference books don't give a complete history of the mark, they are very useful but often are citing single examples to provide a date. I am not sure if this is the case for this cross mark, which is why I would like to find some other swords with the mark to compare with.

The second mark I found nothing so far, I looked through the usual resources for takouba but I do not think anyone documented it. I don't have many resources for just European marks.

I am usually as skeptical as you and Lee, which is why when Lee suggested an early date I was surprised, but I know neither of you would entertain the idea unless you had pretty strong reasons to do so.

I think the next step is to find some other examples marked similarly and see if anything that has been dated shows a) the second mark and b) the same profile. I think this will help to pin down if this potentially came from a workshop and the mark is as specialized as the book Wolf has says.

Again, thank you guys and I want to make clear I am not date crazy and don't like arguing with the sources

I just like to know as much as I can.

Iain

22nd December 2011, 10:41 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 949	Holy Grail of Takouba I favor that this takouba has a 14th or 15th century European blade based upon the nature of the marks and the appearance of the background steel. I have known so many owners certain they had a medieval European blade remounted as a kaskara or takouba. This is the first one, albeit based upon pictures, that I believe in. So my certainty in dismissing these claims on general principal and following the experience of Briggs is now broken. ...Unless it is a brilliant forgery targeted to set me drooling all over myself, but I do not think so.

23rd December 2011, 08:16 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,583	As previously mentioned there is no doubt that the 'forked cross' or cross fourchee appeared encircled as a known blade marking in 1590, but who actually used it remains unknown...it was likely used by a number of makers on blades as was the case with many of these marks. The use of crosses on blades, particularly along with names and invocations was well established with the Vlfberht, Ingelrii and Gicelin blades of Frankish origin from mid 10th to mid 11th centuries, usually encapsulating the words or names. These were typically Greek crosses (potent) with serif type arm ends also known as the kruckenkruez (crutch cross) in later times (Jerusalem cross by the time of the crusades). In the 6th and 7th centuries crosses were placed on scabbards for the protection of the sword, blessing it and guarding it in battle (Ellis-Davidson, 1962, p.93). It is known that earlier, various symbols including crosses were inlaid in blades usually in gold or brass (latten). It seems that the nature of the cross appearing on this blade is distinguished by the forked ends as discussed, and that while crosses have appeared on blades over many centuries, this form is somewhat distinctive. These forked ends are seen on cross & orb marks on German blades assessed by Sir James Mann (Wallace Coll. A524, p.269) as 16th century. In previous discussions it has been noted that the forked end cross fourchee is seen on several examples of swords of justice of presumably 16th to 17th century. These are attributed typically to the Vehmic courts or tribunals of Westphalian regions primarily and the cross fourchee occurs between the letters 'S' configured as S+S . (Sacrificum Sanctum). These courts were well in place by the 15th century having been established in Charlemagnes time. While this type of cross cannot be firmly attributed to these secretive groups it is interesting to note the use of this type cross. The form can also be associated as previously mentioned to sacredotal instances concerning clerical vestments, and the use of the cross fourchee (or moline) on the chausuble worn. It is interesting that the 'pall cross' or Y shaped cross is seen in paintings of the Crucifixion in the 13th century and later. This perhaps may have been considered in the use of these forked terminals on the cross, of course along with other possibilities. Whatever the case, it would seem quite likely that this type of cross inlaid in this manner predates the 1590 estimate as discussed in markings references. Regarding the cross and orb, these date far into antiquity and were well in use in variation from Byzantine times (used even in Egypt by the Coptic Christians) and in Germany in the 15th century in printers guild marks, in Venice on blades in examples c.1520 and 1560 (Boccia & Coelho, 1975). Interestingly this device was used in the badge of the Carthusian Order in Cologne c. 1084. Cologne of course was the precedent of Solingen in arms production and it seems possible this could be significant in its use by these makers, but clearly speculatively speaking. In summary, I do not believe that earlier date for this blade than 1590 is compromised at all by the cited markings references shown. Typically these authors simply lifted the material from previous authors thus various entries cannot necessarily be considered supportive of each other. What would be excellent would be finding similar marking on well provenanced example which is dated. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd December 2011 at 05:15 PM.

23rd December 2011, 01:45 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,583	This is absolutely amazing! and well said by Lee...the Holy Grail of takoubas... I am very much in accord with his observations. Actually, there are few who can match Lee's knowledge and expertise on medieval blades and thier metallurgy. The character of the metal and shape of the well worn blades' fullering suggests a quite early blade, and these lattened markings are most certainly European. Actually these 'cross fourchee' correspond to the type markings that were placed on blades in the times when ordnance and war materials were typically controlled by the Bishop in church establishments. Often these type crosses were a component of the signature or marks of those individuals, and seem to have become adopted singly as a kind of blessing or talismanic imbuement. The marking itself, much as in the case of most others, is recorded in various compilations of markings as shown along with a date, which is more of a presumed date or period than accurately recorded notation. Most of these are taken from collected weapons and the approximate period of use and so on are captioned with them. These were of course transcribed into many subsequent works of later writers, so while of course plausible, they must be regarded as largely speculative unless they can be proven with wider range of provenanced examples carrying similar marks. It has been me understanding that the origins of the cross and orb remain unclear as well as the period which they came into use. I believe the Swiss attribution derives most likely from the many Landsknecht blades which had these and other cross oriented markings as previously noted. Most of these of course were probably from German workshops. How this early blade, which can likely predate the 16th century, perhaps even some time earlier, came to be in Saharan regions can only of course be speculated. It is well worn and clearly an esteemed blade which seems to have likely been handed down for many generations. It has been refurbished by a skilled smith, and the care in emplacing the blade into the bolstering block forte with even the detail of the dentated edge shows it was done for an important figure in my perception. The old style of hilt as noted by Iain suggests its last 'incarnation' was some time ago, and the sword has probably been 'static' for a very long time. This is a breathtaking sword Iain!!! and all the more so because it is quite literally a historic icon and clearly holds so many of the secrets of these Saharan swords. Thank you so much for sharing it here!!! All the very best, Jim

23rd December 2011, 02:38 AM	#5
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	Iain, they say in the book clear that they started with the producing of this special mark in 1590. That's why I think, could not be before. They don't say in this book when they stopped with this mark.

23rd December 2011, 10:14 AM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	Thanks guys for all the great information and comments. Wolf, Thank you for checking for me. Does the book mention a particular maker or workshop that started this mark? Also did I notice on the illustration that there should be sword in the main museum in Berlin with this mark? If so I will try to contact them so we can see it. A big question still for me is to find something with both marks and a similar blade style. I didn't think this blade style was very typical for late 16th century, but I am no expert. Anyways, I would not be unhappy with the 1590 date. For me it is still very old and perhaps the oldest complete takouba I have seen. Jim, I agree with you completely that sometimes the marking reference books don't give a complete history of the mark, they are very useful but often are citing single examples to provide a date. I am not sure if this is the case for this cross mark, which is why I would like to find some other swords with the mark to compare with. The second mark I found nothing so far, I looked through the usual resources for takouba but I do not think anyone documented it. I don't have many resources for just European marks. I am usually as skeptical as you and Lee, which is why when Lee suggested an early date I was surprised, but I know neither of you would entertain the idea unless you had pretty strong reasons to do so. I think the next step is to find some other examples marked similarly and see if anything that has been dated shows a) the second mark and b) the same profile. I think this will help to pin down if this potentially came from a workshop and the mark is as specialized as the book Wolf has says. Again, thank you guys and I want to make clear I am not date crazy and don't like arguing with the sources I just like to know as much as I can. Iain