European bladed takouba

[Wodimi]

Iain, first congratulation to this sword. For me it's Haussa style. What you think or feel of the mark, could it be an old one, or more an imitation of this real old Solingen smithmark? Is it brass inside the cross?

[Iain]

Hi Wolf,

Not an imitation in my opinion. Lee has kindly pointed me in the direction of this thread and sword:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...91&postcount=7

The style of the marks and inlays are exactly the same. Also the profile of the blade, when taking into consideration the shortened length and rounded tip, is very, very similar. I'll let Lee say more on his impressions, only I can say that I think it is earlier than the 1590 date on the cross mark in your illustrations (thanks for posting them by the way!).

Perhaps Hausa I agree, unfortunately I see no way right now to say if it not Tuareg, Hausa or something else.

Best,

Iain

[Wodimi]

Hi Iain,

if the cross mark is no imitation, will say an original mark, than it makes no sense to me, that the blade could be earlier than 1590. Why should a German (Solingen) blacksmith made his sign on the blade, if he don't made the blade. I think the people at that time are very proud for their work and would not made their mark on an older used blade, no no. The other way had happen, in the 15./16 Cent. there are German sword makers who copy for example this ball with a cross, a Swiss mark from the 10.Cent., but very famous for their quality.

It makes more sense, if the blade is not so old, that somebody later made this mark because this quality European blades had for sure a bigger value and the believe of the people maybe also more power with such (magic) signs. This you can read in documents from Henry Lhote and also Jean Gabus told so. That's the reason why I asked for your feeling, original or later attached mark.

The question Hausa or Tuareg......have you copper parts at your new beautiful sword? If not, it would be for me one point for Hausa origin, because Tuareg normal use all three materials, iron, brass and copper.

only some thoughts.

Merry Christmas to all
Wolf

[Iain]

Hi Wolf,

Probably we have a small misunderstanding. I am sure fairly sure it is an original mark and my understanding is this is an old symbol. I don't see why it could only be attributed to 1590? Are there any more details in your book you found the mark in? For example a photo of a blade from around 1590 with the mark? Its something like the running wolf maybe or the cross and orb, you can find many versions in different periods, so just because there is one match from 1590 doesn't mean it can't be the same mark older or newer - like you said copies of marks from the 10 or 11th centuries. There is also the question of the second mark, I cannot find very much information about it.

I am familiar with the practice of copied marks for talismanic value but I honestly don't think this is one of those cases. I am about 99% sure original.

So I agree it is not a mark that some smith put on an old blade, it is original to the blade.

No copper, but I have to say you don't always find copper. You can look at these two old swords from Louis-Pierre: http://blade.japet.com/takouba.htm these are absolutely Tuareg swords. So I am still not sure. It could also be from Bornu regions...

[Tim Simmons]

We could be getting uncomfortably close to Richard Widmark and "The Long Ships"?

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

We could be getting uncomfortably close to Richard Widmark and "The Long Ships"?

Must say the reference is going over my head at the moment Tim?

[Lee]

I favor that this takouba has a 14th or 15th century European blade based upon the nature of the marks and the appearance of the background steel.

I have known so many owners certain they had a medieval European blade remounted as a kaskara or takouba. This is the first one, albeit based upon pictures, that I believe in. So my certainty in dismissing these claims on general principal and following the experience of Briggs is now broken.

...Unless it is a brilliant forgery targeted to set me drooling all over myself, but I do not think so.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Wodimi

Hi Iain,

if the cross mark is no imitation, will say an original mark, than it makes no sense to me, that the blade could be earlier than 1590. Why should a German (Solingen) blacksmith made his sign on the blade, if he don't made the blade. I think the people at that time are very proud for their work and would not made their mark on an older used blade, no no. The other way had happen, in the 15./16 Cent. there are German sword makers who copy for example this ball with a cross, a Swiss mark from the 10.Cent., but very famous for their quality.

It makes more sense, if the blade is not so old, that somebody later made this mark because this quality European blades had for sure a bigger value and the believe of the people maybe also more power with such (magic) signs. This you can read in documents from Henry Lhote and also Jean Gabus told so. That's the reason why I asked for your feeling, original or later attached mark.

The question Hausa or Tuareg......have you copper parts at your new beautiful sword? If not, it would be for me one point for Hausa origin, because Tuareg normal use all three materials, iron, brass and copper.

only some thoughts.

Merry Christmas to all
Wolf

While not relevant to the marking on this sword directly (though the cross enclosed withing a circle may be perceived as a variant I suppose)...I am intrigued by the observation that the cross and orb is a Swiss mark from the 10th century. The marking indeed was used by German makers, but I am wondering what Swiss makers this refers to.

I have been searching through references and finally found a comment in Briggs (1965) citing Henri Lhote, who in 1954 wrote "...the cross and orb originated as a Swiss mark applied to blades made in Vienne in France, which was widely copied by German armourers in 15th and 16th c. In point of fact it seems to have been essentially a German mark".
In another reference to work by Lhote, Briggs is curious as to how he arrived at the conclusion that copper and brass inlaid markings are proof that these had to have been added in Africa, as there was no tradition in Europe for this practice with these metals? There was, the term in Europe was 'latten' and the practice dates into the early centuries of blade production.

I am truly curious on 10th century use of the marks by the Swiss and if for the sake of accuracy we might know what references state this. I have been under the impression, much as Briggs apparantly, that these cross and orb marks were used by Solingen makers primarily.

[Iain]

Still doing as much reading as possible, but thanks to a kind chap on a more European oriented forum, I was pointed to this sword that Christies auctioned off. Mid 14th century, same type of cross, same type of incised lines. Similar blade profile.

http://www.armsandarmourforum.com/fo...der-the-hammer

A photo of the mark attached here as well for forum archives. There are other examples as well I am finding, some with the double circles as in this case.

In light of this, I can only say I think Lee (and Jim) have been spot on and I am quite happy about being able to realistically say I think my example should date mid to late 14th century.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Iain!
I think we can well support probable 14th century period conservatively for your blade, and that is powerfully exciting. I really appreciate your keeping additions current for the purpose of enhancing the archival content here.

While I am often addressing the much wider populus of readers who clearly use this material, I know that those of us who participate actively use this material constantly as well. The goal here is not who can provide the best answers, but for us all to contribute as much as possible to better compile accurate ones.

I always hope that eventually those reading will join as share information we have not yet touched on, or as in the case of uncited or unreferenced material presented may offer the source from which these comments were obtained.

All the best,
Jim

[TVV]

Iain, while I cannot add much to the discussion, I just want to congratulate you on what is undoubtedly an amazing find. Given all your effort and research into takoubas and weapons from the Western Sahel, this is most deserved. Merry Christmas!
Teodor