Manding dagger/short-sword?

Kirk · 20th December 2011, 05:33 PM

The Manding is designated as a language group, who share a similar dialect and live many of the countries in the West African region. They can be found from the Gambia to the Côte d'Ivoire and include the Bambara, Dyula, Mandingo, Maninke, and Malinke ( and probably many others). Granted, migration and assimilation being taken into account, I would imagine variation in hilt design is bound to diverse and imaginative.

I've noticed three kinds of hilts attributed to the Manding people. Is there a list or typography chart that clarifies or discusses this in more detail?

Lew · 20th December 2011, 06:29 PM

The sword looks to be from Senegal. The photo of the man with the spear is of the Dan tribe based on the style of the spear. Below is an example of a Manding dagger that was in my collection a few years ago. too bad there is no scabbard with your sword it would help identify it for sure.

Iain · 20th December 2011, 06:51 PM

Hi Kirk,

The Manding as a linguistic group rather than an "tribe" per say, is well noted. They are an extremely diverse group of peoples found in an extremely wide ranging area.

Unfortunately I an not aware of a typology or solid guidelines for range of hilts encountered among the Mande ethnic groups.

The only real generalization I can think from my own experience is the propensity among Manding swords for a terminal on the pommels. There is of course a little nub on the end of your sword and the 'nubs' which are seen on Manding sabers (by this I mean the swords that are often European cavalry sabers with simple leather hilts and a brass nub) as well as swords from Liberia or Ivory coast with wooden hilts and again a small metal nub. It seems to be a motif that recurs frequently.

Lew brings up an interesting point with the Dan or Gio people attribution for the drawing you showed. The Gio are of course a Mande speaking people. However I always thought they were centered in Liberia and Ivory Coast... Not Senegal. However I could be wrong, perhaps Lew can clarify? Otherwise, purely from the drawing and the caption in the book of a Mandingo chief, I would assume the Mandingo group of Sierra Leone?

I have to admit to having little experience with any of the Mande ethnic groups and their weaponry, but I want to state again that this is a nice piece. I suspect as well it might be a shortened blade, but that in no way detracts from it.

I wanted to show off a few other examples but needed to wait until the auctions ended. I am uploading a couple photos as well as the links. Sadly this first link I forgot to bid on. A very similar piece to yours, although shorter.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/260907280936...#ht_500wt_1301

And the second, a set of two that has similarities in design of the hilts although executed in different materials and perhaps a bit newer.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180771133588...ht_1507wt_1298

Hopefully some of this is some use, I only wish I could give more clear answers or directions.

All the best,

Iain

Kirk · 20th December 2011, 08:41 PM

Hey Ian,

The "nub" or "pommel cap" does seem to be a common design for both swords and daggers of the Mande/Manding people. It looks like a combination of Takouba and Kaskara pommel designs. The nub of the Kaskara pommel and the cap of the Takouba pommel. The third type I've noticed is where the upper and lower guards are the same and the pommel ends with a leather ring. Just a thought. I have a theory that one of these are of an older design from the classic or medieval times.

What makes you suspect the blade was shortened? I'll try to post better images of the blade for better analysis. What century do you think it was made?

Guess what, that Manding dagger with the deteriorated sheath you were looking at on ebay. I got it. Sorry dude. it was too nice of a piece to let pass. I'll see if I can get some photos of the hilt for you.

Lew · 20th December 2011, 09:22 PM

Here are some Senegal daggers sorry maybe I was confused?

Iain · 20th December 2011, 10:13 PM

Hi Lew,

No worries, I was just unsure if I'd missed something and the Dan people were also in Senegal.

Nice selection of daggers (yours?), I've heard of these coming from Senegal before as well, often attributed to Tuaregs. I've never been sure of the real age and story behind these though and what the real ethnic attribution is. Wildly different than the normal teleks and arm daggers though!

I certainly agree the brass work shares some similarities with the piece under discussion.

Iain

Lew · 21st December 2011, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Lew,

No worries, I was just unsure if I'd missed something and the Dan people were also in Senegal.

Nice selection of daggers (yours?)
Iain

Nope
Copied them from the internet

thinreadline · 10th January 2012, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Lew,

No worries, I was just unsure if I'd missed something and the Dan people were also in Senegal.

Nice selection of daggers (yours?), I've heard of these coming from Senegal before as well, often attributed to Tuaregs. I've never been sure of the real age and story behind these though and what the real ethnic attribution is. Wildly different than the normal teleks and arm daggers though!

I certainly agree the brass work shares some similarities with the piece under discussion.

Iain

Hi
This picture also appears in Spring's African Arms & Armour where they are idenrified as ( from left to right ) as : 1. Manding dagger from the Bissagos Islands ; 2. Sierra Leone ; 3. Senegal ; 4. Reguibat Arab, S Morrocco .

thinreadline · 10th January 2012, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Here are some Senegal daggers sorry maybe I was confused?

Hi
This picture also appears in Spring's African Arms & Armour where they are idenrified as ( from left to right ) as : 1. Manding dagger from the Bissagos Islands ; 2. Sierra Leone ; 3. Senegal ; 4. Reguibat Arab, S Morrocco .

Iain · 10th January 2012, 01:28 PM

Thanks for the ID from Spring, interesting little daggers for me. Mainly because unlike teleks or more typical arm daggers I can't recall actually every seeing on of this fancy variety being worn in a period photograph.

Kirk · 20th December 2011, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

The sword looks to be from Senegal. The photo of the man with the spear is of the Dan tribe based on the style of the spear. Below is an example of a Manding dagger that was in my collection a few years ago. too bad there is no scabbard with your sword it would help identify it for sure.

Hey Lew
Its unfortunate that it didn't come with a scabbard. It would have helped in identification and cataloging of these old and overlooked pieces.

By the way, have you come across any pieces that are indigenous to the Wollof or Serer people of Senegal? I've never heard or come across one, but for a people to be surrounded by cultures which use swords and daggers (Tuareg, Mande, and Berber) I find it strange that none of their weapons have been found or identified.

20th December 2011, 06:29 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	The sword looks to be from Senegal. The photo of the man with the spear is of the Dan tribe based on the style of the spear. Below is an example of a Manding dagger that was in my collection a few years ago. too bad there is no scabbard with your sword it would help identify it for sure. Attached Images

20th December 2011, 06:51 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Kirk, The Manding as a linguistic group rather than an "tribe" per say, is well noted. They are an extremely diverse group of peoples found in an extremely wide ranging area. Unfortunately I an not aware of a typology or solid guidelines for range of hilts encountered among the Mande ethnic groups. The only real generalization I can think from my own experience is the propensity among Manding swords for a terminal on the pommels. There is of course a little nub on the end of your sword and the 'nubs' which are seen on Manding sabers (by this I mean the swords that are often European cavalry sabers with simple leather hilts and a brass nub) as well as swords from Liberia or Ivory coast with wooden hilts and again a small metal nub. It seems to be a motif that recurs frequently. Lew brings up an interesting point with the Dan or Gio people attribution for the drawing you showed. The Gio are of course a Mande speaking people. However I always thought they were centered in Liberia and Ivory Coast... Not Senegal. However I could be wrong, perhaps Lew can clarify? Otherwise, purely from the drawing and the caption in the book of a Mandingo chief, I would assume the Mandingo group of Sierra Leone? I have to admit to having little experience with any of the Mande ethnic groups and their weaponry, but I want to state again that this is a nice piece. I suspect as well it might be a shortened blade, but that in no way detracts from it. I wanted to show off a few other examples but needed to wait until the auctions ended. I am uploading a couple photos as well as the links. Sadly this first link I forgot to bid on. A very similar piece to yours, although shorter. http://www.ebay.com/itm/260907280936...#ht_500wt_1301 And the second, a set of two that has similarities in design of the hilts although executed in different materials and perhaps a bit newer. http://www.ebay.com/itm/180771133588...ht_1507wt_1298 Hopefully some of this is some use, I only wish I could give more clear answers or directions. All the best, Iain Attached Images

20th December 2011, 08:41 PM	#4
Kirk Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Brooklyn, N.Y. Posts: 11	Hey Ian, The "nub" or "pommel cap" does seem to be a common design for both swords and daggers of the Mande/Manding people. It looks like a combination of Takouba and Kaskara pommel designs. The nub of the Kaskara pommel and the cap of the Takouba pommel. The third type I've noticed is where the upper and lower guards are the same and the pommel ends with a leather ring. Just a thought. I have a theory that one of these are of an older design from the classic or medieval times. What makes you suspect the blade was shortened? I'll try to post better images of the blade for better analysis. What century do you think it was made? Guess what, that Manding dagger with the deteriorated sheath you were looking at on ebay. I got it. Sorry dude. it was too nice of a piece to let pass. I'll see if I can get some photos of the hilt for you. Attached Images

20th December 2011, 09:22 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here are some Senegal daggers sorry maybe I was confused? Attached Images

20th December 2011, 05:33 PM	#1
Kirk Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Brooklyn, N.Y. Posts: 11	The Manding is designated as a language group, who share a similar dialect and live many of the countries in the West African region. They can be found from the Gambia to the Côte d'Ivoire and include the Bambara, Dyula, Mandingo, Maninke, and Malinke ( and probably many others). Granted, migration and assimilation being taken into account, I would imagine variation in hilt design is bound to diverse and imaginative. I've noticed three kinds of hilts attributed to the Manding people. Is there a list or typography chart that clarifies or discusses this in more detail?

20th December 2011, 10:13 PM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Lew, No worries, I was just unsure if I'd missed something and the Dan people were also in Senegal. Nice selection of daggers (yours?), I've heard of these coming from Senegal before as well, often attributed to Tuaregs. I've never been sure of the real age and story behind these though and what the real ethnic attribution is. Wildly different than the normal teleks and arm daggers though! I certainly agree the brass work shares some similarities with the piece under discussion. Iain

10th January 2012, 01:28 PM	#10
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Thanks for the ID from Spring, interesting little daggers for me. Mainly because unlike teleks or more typical arm daggers I can't recall actually every seeing on of this fancy variety being worn in a period photograph.