Mystery Weapons from Bulgaria

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2005, 05:54 PM

Although I have nothing to add to this thread at the moment, I just wanted to say that in reviewing this thread and the excellent information and contributions this has been an exciting learning experience!
The weapons of these regions have always been as noted, superficially classified as 'Ottoman' or 'Balkan' at best, and it is fascinating to see the constructive observations shared here. I also admire the very courteous and professional tone of the discussion.
Thank you very much gentlemen, and especially you Teodor for opening this thread and the outstanding manner with which you presented these weapons.You opened with objective statements, and presented important data supporting them as well as your own observations on the weapons.

Nicely done

All best regards,
Jim

Rivkin · 26th March 2006, 10:31 PM

Recently I stambled onto a collection of russian articles concerning the balkan war - it seems not only there were a large number of circassians fighting on the ottoman side, but russian empire have used a very significant number of caucasian mercenaries. On the attached picture supposedly one can see osethian officers from the campaign.

TVV · 26th March 2006, 11:23 PM

I guess you mean the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78, and not the Balkan War.

Rivkin · 27th March 2006, 01:05 AM

Yes, not 1912.

eftihis · 6th July 2007, 07:02 PM

Hi, these are photos from an exhibition of the "museum for the macedonian struggle", that is currently on public view. There are kamas used by Greek fighters, but of course there is no evidence where in Macedonia (or in what balkan teritory) they were made.

Very interesting is the shamshir style sword. Its guard has one part turning at one side and the other part on the other side, exactly the style of the guard of some of the kamas. Therefore definitely made at the same place with the same fashion.

TVV · 6th July 2007, 08:13 PM

Great photos Eftihis! It is too bad that the shmashir is in its scabbard and one cannot see the blade, but it looks shortened. Perhaps the guard is a later replacement. The variety is interesting, but to be somewhat expected when it comes to Macedonia. For example VMORO fighters bought whatever weapon they could, from cap lock rifles to Mannlichers and Enfields, and there are still specimens found in people's atticks that are so rare that one has to go to the museum of the producer to find another copy. Considering the geographic position of Macedonia and its ethnical diversity, it would only make sense that there is a diversity among the weapon forms as well.
There is an interesting mediterranean dagger on on of the photos. I think in one of Hermann Historica's catalogues a similar one is identified as from Yannina. Do you recall what its description said?
Regards,
Teodor

eftihis · 7th July 2007, 08:50 AM

Hi, i have seen a similar dagger in the book you mentioned, and i remembered it said "Yiannina" as a provenance, and i have seen another with the same attribution, but it does not look as "local" greek style. Maybe is a mediterranean dagger design that has been copied in Yiannina. This one in the photo has only a label with the name of the man it belonged to.

Rumpel · 2nd March 2010, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Great photos Eftihis! It is too bad that the shmashir is in its scabbard and one cannot see the blade, but it looks shortened. Perhaps the guard is a later replacement.

Hi Teodor, sorry about dredging up an old thread, but I think the shamshir above may be a modified Ottoman issue sabre (see pics).

The below photo was taken by the contemporary Macedonian Greek photographer Leonidas Papazoglou, and some of his other photos show rather appealing qamas stuffed into waistbands: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca...das_Papazoglou

gp · 7th May 2020, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Hi, these are photos from an exhibition of the "museum for the macedonian struggle", that is currently on public view. There are kamas used by Greek fighters, but of course there is no evidence where in Macedonia (or in what balkan teritory) they were made.

Very interesting is the shamshir style sword. Its guard has one part turning at one side and the other part on the other side, exactly the style of the guard of some of the kamas. Therefore definitely made at the same place with the same fashion.

Hello Eftihis, being the new kid on the block, I read some older post which interest me. So also this one...which raises a question:
did the weapons belong to Greek guerilla's on mainland Europe, Asia Minor or the ones from Crete ( as described in Captain Michalis / Ο Καπετάν Μιχάλης, the novel by Nikos Kazantzakis ? Or was there not much difference at all ?

TVV · 8th May 2020, 04:36 PM

Itaca, the dagger with the hilt encased on brass(second one from your pictures going from the top down) is Bulgarian, there is no doubt about that. It was probably made in Gabrovo, the main knife making center from the early 20th century, though unless there are markings it would be impossible to tell for certain. I am not sure about the first dagger you show, as it looks like a custom creation.

Teodor

26th March 2006, 10:31 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Recently I stambled onto a collection of russian articles concerning the balkan war - it seems not only there were a large number of circassians fighting on the ottoman side, but russian empire have used a very significant number of caucasian mercenaries. On the attached picture supposedly one can see osethian officers from the campaign. Attached Images

6th July 2007, 07:02 PM	#5
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	Photos adding to the subject Hi, these are photos from an exhibition of the "museum for the macedonian struggle", that is currently on public view. There are kamas used by Greek fighters, but of course there is no evidence where in Macedonia (or in what balkan teritory) they were made. Very interesting is the shamshir style sword. Its guard has one part turning at one side and the other part on the other side, exactly the style of the guard of some of the kamas. Therefore definitely made at the same place with the same fashion. Attached Images

8th August 2005, 05:54 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Although I have nothing to add to this thread at the moment, I just wanted to say that in reviewing this thread and the excellent information and contributions this has been an exciting learning experience! The weapons of these regions have always been as noted, superficially classified as 'Ottoman' or 'Balkan' at best, and it is fascinating to see the constructive observations shared here. I also admire the very courteous and professional tone of the discussion. Thank you very much gentlemen, and especially you Teodor for opening this thread and the outstanding manner with which you presented these weapons.You opened with objective statements, and presented important data supporting them as well as your own observations on the weapons. Nicely done All best regards, Jim

26th March 2006, 11:23 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,716	I guess you mean the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78, and not the Balkan War.

27th March 2006, 01:05 AM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Yes, not 1912.

6th July 2007, 08:13 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,716	Great photos Eftihis! It is too bad that the shmashir is in its scabbard and one cannot see the blade, but it looks shortened. Perhaps the guard is a later replacement. The variety is interesting, but to be somewhat expected when it comes to Macedonia. For example VMORO fighters bought whatever weapon they could, from cap lock rifles to Mannlichers and Enfields, and there are still specimens found in people's atticks that are so rare that one has to go to the museum of the producer to find another copy. Considering the geographic position of Macedonia and its ethnical diversity, it would only make sense that there is a diversity among the weapon forms as well. There is an interesting mediterranean dagger on on of the photos. I think in one of Hermann Historica's catalogues a similar one is identified as from Yannina. Do you recall what its description said? Regards, Teodor

7th July 2007, 08:50 AM	#7
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	Hi, i have seen a similar dagger in the book you mentioned, and i remembered it said "Yiannina" as a provenance, and i have seen another with the same attribution, but it does not look as "local" greek style. Maybe is a mediterranean dagger design that has been copied in Yiannina. This one in the photo has only a label with the name of the man it belonged to.

8th May 2020, 04:36 PM	#10
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,716	Itaca, the dagger with the hilt encased on brass(second one from your pictures going from the top down) is Bulgarian, there is no doubt about that. It was probably made in Gabrovo, the main knife making center from the early 20th century, though unless there are markings it would be impossible to tell for certain. I am not sure about the first dagger you show, as it looks like a custom creation. Teodor