Sudanese kaskara - Arabic translation request

Jim McDougall · 29th November 2011, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

...could the quite calligraphic lion refer to Ali?

These stylized lions are taken from certain mid 19th century Solingen markings and as perceived tribally were seen as representing a brave warrior, much as various markings meanings were adopted and transcribed into thier symbolism. These markings also seen in Saharan takouba.

Dom · 29th November 2011, 01:34 AM

Hi
without prejudice, just an idea that comes as well
the lion is associated with "Assad Allah of Isphahan" famous swordsmith
"Assad Allah" (the Lion of God)
and signed ... with a "lion" brand that was taken, copied, and even abused,
the stamp was so ... too much famous
...why not been exported and used on Sudan,
as has been done in ... India

never forget that,
in the Arabic the word "Prestige", it's translated by ... "Prestige"
it's so important in society ... trust me

à +

Dom

Iain · 29th November 2011, 02:12 AM

My understanding was also that the lion rampant was adapted from European blades in the context of kaskara and takouba, as it is a mark found on both 19th century trade blades and much older blades as well - see Briggs, Morel etc. And then absorbed into marks regarded locally has holding meaning and power like Jim mentioned.

However it could easily have taken on multiple meanings once introduced including the intriguing idea Dom mentioned.

Any luck with the translation A.alnakkas? I'm quite curious about the poem as well as the errors of the scribe you mentioned.

A.alnakkas · 29th November 2011, 05:52 AM

Hey Iain,

I translated alot of it. But cant find the poem anywhere. Most people (me included) hesitate to translate classic arabic. Will see what I can do today.

A.alnakkas · 29th November 2011, 12:06 PM

Ok, I'll write those in Arabic for now:

First 3 pictures:

من ماشا(مشى) الدهر ضيما و أسجرت (ف أسحرت) به ألاونات (الاونلت؟) جوار منه لم يضم

man masha (or could be msha) Aldahr dhayman wa Asjarat (could be fa As"harat) behe alawenat (could be alawnalat but that makes no sense to me) Jewar menh lam yadhum.

In english, it would be something like this : Who accompanies eternity in sadness (It could also be Who walks the path of eternity in sadness) and is set ablaze (or it could be mesmerised) by late occurances - what is near him (this could be wrong) wont ever be oppressed/saddened.

A.alnakkas · 29th November 2011, 12:20 PM

I need a clearer 4th picture but here are the rest:

5th:

إستلمت الندا من خير مستلم

Estalamat alnada min khair mustalimu

And you will recieve the call (or it could be: And you recieved the dew/call) from the best of recievers (this part is classical arabic at work, the meaning is not clear so do not take this as a true translation)

ما فتى إلا علي و ما سيف إلا ذو الفقار

Ma fata ella Ali wa la saif ella Dhul Fiqar (the sentence is grammatically incorrect unles someone can prove it to be correct

No warrior except Ali and no sword except Dhul Fiqar.

6th/7th picture:

وقاية الله عنت عن عفة مضامن الدروع وعن عال خمن الأرطم (؟) سنة 1245

Weqayah Allah anat an efat madhamen alDuru' wa an 'al mn Alartam sannah (written vertically) 1245

This sentence seems to be non-arabic or accented or uses words that are uncommon. It seems to be an evocation to protect the wearer of the armor (no idea why armor and not weapon) and it contains a date of 1245 hijri ;-)

8th and 9th pictures are unclear. Please post clearer ones.

Also, do not take this as a "translation" as I could have missed the meaning of these poems.

Iain · 29th November 2011, 01:58 PM

I think you are probably selling your translation a bit short.

What you posted makes sense to me and I really appreciate your efforts.

The date in particular is interesting and certainly seems to fit with the sword overall.

It's interesting to find a piece with inscriptions that are not religious verses or in the pretty much unreadable Thuluth style.

Colin, congratulations once again on this very fine and I think important piece.

29th November 2011, 01:34 AM	#2
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi without prejudice, just an idea that comes as well the lion is associated with "Assad Allah of Isphahan" famous swordsmith "Assad Allah" (the Lion of God) and signed ... with a "lion" brand that was taken, copied, and even abused, the stamp was so ... too much famous ...why not been exported and used on Sudan, as has been done in ... India never forget that, in the Arabic the word "Prestige", it's translated by ... "Prestige" it's so important in society ... trust me à + Dom

29th November 2011, 02:12 AM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	My understanding was also that the lion rampant was adapted from European blades in the context of kaskara and takouba, as it is a mark found on both 19th century trade blades and much older blades as well - see Briggs, Morel etc. And then absorbed into marks regarded locally has holding meaning and power like Jim mentioned. However it could easily have taken on multiple meanings once introduced including the intriguing idea Dom mentioned. Any luck with the translation A.alnakkas? I'm quite curious about the poem as well as the errors of the scribe you mentioned.

29th November 2011, 05:52 AM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey Iain, I translated alot of it. But cant find the poem anywhere. Most people (me included) hesitate to translate classic arabic. Will see what I can do today.

29th November 2011, 12:06 PM	#5
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Ok, I'll write those in Arabic for now: First 3 pictures: من ماشا(مشى) الدهر ضيما و أسجرت (ف أسحرت) به ألاونات (الاونلت؟) جوار منه لم يضم man masha (or could be msha) Aldahr dhayman wa Asjarat (could be fa As"harat) behe alawenat (could be alawnalat but that makes no sense to me) Jewar menh lam yadhum. In english, it would be something like this : Who accompanies eternity in sadness (It could also be Who walks the path of eternity in sadness) and is set ablaze (or it could be mesmerised) by late occurances - what is near him (this could be wrong) wont ever be oppressed/saddened.

29th November 2011, 12:20 PM	#6
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I need a clearer 4th picture but here are the rest: 5th: إستلمت الندا من خير مستلم Estalamat alnada min khair mustalimu And you will recieve the call (or it could be: And you recieved the dew/call) from the best of recievers (this part is classical arabic at work, the meaning is not clear so do not take this as a true translation) ما فتى إلا علي و ما سيف إلا ذو الفقار Ma fata ella Ali wa la saif ella Dhul Fiqar (the sentence is grammatically incorrect unles someone can prove it to be correct No warrior except Ali and no sword except Dhul Fiqar. 6th/7th picture: وقاية الله عنت عن عفة مضامن الدروع وعن عال خمن الأرطم (؟) سنة 1245 Weqayah Allah anat an efat madhamen alDuru' wa an 'al mn Alartam sannah (written vertically) 1245 This sentence seems to be non-arabic or accented or uses words that are uncommon. It seems to be an evocation to protect the wearer of the armor (no idea why armor and not weapon) and it contains a date of 1245 hijri ;-) 8th and 9th pictures are unclear. Please post clearer ones. Also, do not take this as a "translation" as I could have missed the meaning of these poems.

29th November 2011, 01:58 PM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	I think you are probably selling your translation a bit short. What you posted makes sense to me and I really appreciate your efforts. The date in particular is interesting and certainly seems to fit with the sword overall. It's interesting to find a piece with inscriptions that are not religious verses or in the pretty much unreadable Thuluth style. Colin, congratulations once again on this very fine and I think important piece.