Interesting Unusual Rapier for comments

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wow! Gene thank you and Nando and Michael for the very kind accolade
undeserved, but very gratefully accepted! I was more than delighted, as always, to have the opportunity to research and learn from this most interesting rapier. I am really glad he posted it here as mine is most certainly not the last word on this or any other weapon, and you guys out there are part of the collective knowledge we share here.

Case in point, well done Fernando on the Klingenthal attribution and that poincon!!! I have no resources on French swords here as most my emphasis is on Solingen, and the Solingen in script fell in place with spurious marks which they of course were known to use. In researching most efforts were to try to locate element styles which are incorporated into this hilt, which as noted are grouped from various classic pieces. What I found were mostly 16th century, and of course the north and low countries cavalry walloons type pierced disc shellguards, of the same effect in degree seen in many pappenheimer forms (though these are angled vertically in more developed hilts).

The blade, now seen as pointed out being French officers sword sets the period as noted, but the Solingen script curious. I think Michael's attribution is accurate for Victorian piece using earlier or period French blade (the Victorian era began 1837).

I had expressed to Gene that there seems to have been a practice for some time in 18th c. Solingen in producing classical type swords, such as pappenheimers for export to low countries. By this time these rapiers were of course largely obsolete, however it does seem that classical forms persisted perhaps in various auxiliary, remote or colonial and militia type circumstances such weapons may have seen longer use. It does not seem unlikely that Klingenthal might have also participated in such products. The bilobate arrangement of the discs is quite similar to 19th century French fencing epee form.

I know that in colonial New Spain, the famed Spanish cuphilt remained in use long after it had been considered obsolete, not only through the 18th century but into the 19th. Shipments of thin Solingen made rapier blades are known well into those periods, however the majority of 'cuphilts' hilted in these regions used the heavier arming 'dragoon' blades later, a classic style hilt using a 'modern' type blade in military circumstances.

I would submit, is it not possible that military fraternal groups, or auxiliary units in certain regions might select traditionally oriented weapons which represented earlier fashions and panache. This is a well balanced and classically appointed weapon , and well made despite the the admittedly workmanlike elements such as the discs and the knucklebow swell. If these rather rugged looking components seem unseemly, we should recall the 'cut steel' smallsword fashions in England with the patterns of Matthew Boulton (end of 18th century) and the 'Industrial Revolution' styling popular at the time.

Those are my thoughts, and thank you guys for the kind words and confidence....but clearly ...Fernando.....guessing????!!! NOT!

I think a very sound rapier which despite being anachronistic, still has some interesting possibilities in being such a well made piece with most formidable blade.

All best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,

I'm sure that you can see, when such respected stalwarts of our community as Michael and Nando add their voices to the accolade, it's certainly one that IS well deserved.

We've been discussing this rapier at length of course, and as you know, I was hugely relieved when you were able to confirm that at least some of my 'hopes' for it were not entirely based on wishful thinking.
Basically that this is a genuine blade in an atypical but antique hilt of seemingly mixed style whose origin remains in question.

I am actually rather pleased to hear that the blade is possibly contemporary with the hilt.
I say this because the blade 'feels' like it belongs in this configuration. I also believe that this might have been made this way for a purpose other than decoration or 'fantasy'.

I'm rather pleased with it and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. So now that there is a record of it here, perhaps someone will pin it's origin or even see another!

Thanks for all your kind help Jim.
Best
Gene

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... perhaps someone will pin it's origin or even see another!...

If the blade were German, the sword could be German, French or other.
The blade being French, the sword has a high probabllity to be also French.
... How's that for an approach .

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fernando

If the blade were German, the sword could be German, French or other.
The blade being French, the sword has a high probabllity to be also French.
... How's that for an approach .

Exactly what I'm hoping is the case Nando.
Also, if it's French and not English, I'd say there is more likelyhood of it being made for a specific purpose or commission.
Fingers crossed!