18th century Gunners Stilleto?

kahnjar1 · 17th November 2011, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by templarnight

Ive very much enjoyed your replies to this piece and I thank you.
The Dagger is a total of 55cm long, with a Blade 41.5cm. The maximum thickness of the Blade at the Forte is 8mm.
With regards to the Monogram I would say that it is RN, with No.43 below.
The serrations on the Blade start just under 7cm from the tip and runs for a length 4cm, finishing 2.7cm from the tip.
The channel in between the grooves is about half the thickness of the Blade deep.
I do agree that is possibly Naval.

Why don't you send some pics to the Maritime Museum Greenwich London and ask if they can throw any light in it? Google should give you a contact point.
Regards Stu

katana · 18th November 2011, 01:11 AM

Just a suggestion.......I think the serrations are to 'weaken' the 'spiked' blade. Once a cannon is over-run ....it could be used by the enemy against your own men. Cannons were therefore 'spiked' ....effectively blocking the touch hole...the point thrust in the touch hole and then 'levered' too and fro to fracture the 'blade' ....the long length of the 'blade' giving more leverage making it easier to break and the tip would remain jammed in the touch hole orifice.

Kind Regards David

fernando · 18th November 2011, 09:03 AM

Hi David

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Just a suggestion.......I think the serrations are to 'weaken' the 'spiked' blade. Once a cannon is over-run ....it could be used by the enemy against your own men. Cannons were therefore 'spiked' ....effectively blocking the touch hole...the point thrust in the touch hole and then 'levered' too and fro to fracture the 'blade' ....the long length of the 'blade' giving more leverage making it easier to break and the tip would remain jammed in the touch hole orifice.

Kind Regards David

We are together in this one. Have you read (my) post #11 ?

katana · 18th November 2011, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi David

We are together in this one. Have you read (my) post #11 ?

Your right 'Nando, I sometimes 'speed read' and miss relevent facts

Guilty as charged .....but yes, BOTH agreed

The angle of the 'serrations' would aid the fracture of the 'blade' .....I can see no other reason to deliberately weaken the blade/point . I would also assume that it could be used against flesh and bone in a self defence situation as well.

As a footnote. I would also assume that the 'blade' on this is high carbon steel.....two reasons, the first is that a harder steel will 'bite' better in the softer iron/bronze and remain lodged in the cannon. Secondly the high carbon steel would be more brittle and prone to fracture....especially where the 'serrations' are placed

All the best, my friend
David

terry1956 · 23rd November 2011, 06:52 PM

hi chaps, I just can,t get my head around this being a navy weapon, I have read 100,s of books about sea actions during the black powder period and not once have i read that any guns got spiked, if a ship was taken and that was the only way to get to the guns it was out of the fight so no need to use the ships guns, and if they had of been spiked then there was time and tools to remove the spike. so I just don,t thing it was used by any navy. however i do remember years ago reading about slave ships which had small cannon mounted to clear the decks of the ship if the slaves did try to take the ship, with this in mine spiking these guns may of been a plan, so maybe gunners on slave ships of the time had these items.
at waterloo when the french cavalry overran the british guns it was always said that the biggest mistake was their not taking along artilleryman to spike the british guns. but did the french have any means to spike their cannons, when the french grande battery was over run by the british cavalry during the same battle no french use the spike to disable their gun, so i thing we can take it that these daggers did not form part of the french artillery mans kit. in early wars the artillery was crewed by hired gunners who also in some cases owned their own cannon, it maybe that the dagger was part of their kit to spike the cannon if it was in danger of being taken, with the hope that if spiked the enemy would leave the heavy weapon in position until the battle was won or lost, the gunner would hope that his side won and he would be able to get his cannon back and remove the spike, so that puts it at a date if used on land before 1740 and if on a slave ship before 1840. michael

Jim McDougall · 23rd November 2011, 09:02 PM

I guess I fail to see why this would have to be a naval item too, and it seems like I suggested that there would be little need to disable cannon on a ship...as the ship could relocate or if it was going down obviously end of story.

I will space this out a little so maybe wont be overlooked

Why make a well finished ornamental object, strategically marked for a simple function such as disarming a cannon as this could be as easily done with the priming iron, as I mentioned in post #5.

I dont think ordnance such as cannon balls were decorated and marked at least as far as I know, as thier end result was of course to be destroyed.

Hmmmm.

katana · 23rd November 2011, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Why make a well finished ornamental object, strategically marked for a simple function such as disarming a cannon as this could be as easily done with the priming iron, as I mentioned in post #5.

I dont think ordnance such as cannon balls were decorated and marked at least as far as I know, as thier end result was of course to be destroyed.

Hmmmm.

Hi Jim

,
I would imagine the decision whether to spike a cannon or not would be the decision of an officer asigned to the cannon. Therefore, perhaps also a status symbol of that authority. Hence, the ornamental element.

All the best
David

18th November 2011, 01:11 AM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Just a suggestion.......I think the serrations are to 'weaken' the 'spiked' blade. Once a cannon is over-run ....it could be used by the enemy against your own men. Cannons were therefore 'spiked' ....effectively blocking the touch hole...the point thrust in the touch hole and then 'levered' too and fro to fracture the 'blade' ....the long length of the 'blade' giving more leverage making it easier to break and the tip would remain jammed in the touch hole orifice. Kind Regards David

23rd November 2011, 06:52 PM	#5
terry1956 Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: yeovil, somerset, uk Posts: 75	hi hi chaps, I just can,t get my head around this being a navy weapon, I have read 100,s of books about sea actions during the black powder period and not once have i read that any guns got spiked, if a ship was taken and that was the only way to get to the guns it was out of the fight so no need to use the ships guns, and if they had of been spiked then there was time and tools to remove the spike. so I just don,t thing it was used by any navy. however i do remember years ago reading about slave ships which had small cannon mounted to clear the decks of the ship if the slaves did try to take the ship, with this in mine spiking these guns may of been a plan, so maybe gunners on slave ships of the time had these items. at waterloo when the french cavalry overran the british guns it was always said that the biggest mistake was their not taking along artilleryman to spike the british guns. but did the french have any means to spike their cannons, when the french grande battery was over run by the british cavalry during the same battle no french use the spike to disable their gun, so i thing we can take it that these daggers did not form part of the french artillery mans kit. in early wars the artillery was crewed by hired gunners who also in some cases owned their own cannon, it maybe that the dagger was part of their kit to spike the cannon if it was in danger of being taken, with the hope that if spiked the enemy would leave the heavy weapon in position until the battle was won or lost, the gunner would hope that his side won and he would be able to get his cannon back and remove the spike, so that puts it at a date if used on land before 1740 and if on a slave ship before 1840. michael

23rd November 2011, 09:02 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	I guess I fail to see why this would have to be a naval item too, and it seems like I suggested that there would be little need to disable cannon on a ship...as the ship could relocate or if it was going down obviously end of story. I will space this out a little so maybe wont be overlooked Why make a well finished ornamental object, strategically marked for a simple function such as disarming a cannon as this could be as easily done with the priming iron, as I mentioned in post #5. I dont think ordnance such as cannon balls were decorated and marked at least as far as I know, as thier end result was of course to be destroyed. Hmmmm.