Seven village metal?

Pusaka · 10th November 2011, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gangsa is bronze.

In Central Jawa good quality gamelan instruments are made of bronze, and have traditionally been made of bronze.

The pendok that I mentioned is not made of the bronze that is usually found in Central Jawa, but it could be a bronze, because the composition of bronze is highly variable. New bronze made today is typically about 10% tin and 90% copper, but over the course of history, the metals used to make bronze have varied a lot, I seem to recall reading somewhere that one of the bronzes used in England in early times was made of 8 different metals, what I can remember of this mix is copper, tin, zinc, lead, arsenic.

If the colour of Pusaka's pendok is correct, it is very probably mamas.

There were pendok made of gangsa, or bronze, but I cannot recall ever having handled one.

A. G. Maisey,did they have a specific name for that bronze made of 8metals or did they just call it bronze?

I had also read that gamelan instruments are just made from bronze however I also know that people also consider the gamelan instruments in the royal courts to have a superior sound.

Master Tjokorda Raka Swastika is of the Ubud Royal family so when he said that the gamelan instruments were made from Panca Datu perhaps he was specifically talking about the instruments in the possession of the royal courts or perhaps this is unique to Bali?

David · 10th November 2011, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

A. G. Maisey,did they have a specific name for that bronze made of 8metals or did they just call it bronze?

I had also read that gamelan instruments are just made from bronze however I also know that people also consider the gamelan instruments in the royal courts to have a superior sound.

Master Tjokorda Raka Swastika is of the Ubud Royal family so when he said that the gamelan instruments were made from Panca Datu perhaps he was specifically talking about the instruments in the possession of the royal courts or perhaps this is unique to Bali?

While i would suspect that gamelan made specifically for royal courts would indeed have superior sound i am somewhat doubtful that that sound is the product of gold content specifically, but rather due to those instruments being made by a superior craftsman. I would imagine that gold is added to the mix in these cases more for it's symbolic importance than an sonic one.

Pusaka · 10th November 2011, 06:08 PM

It is called multiphonics, a percussion instrument made from an alloy consisting of several metals when struck gives out a sound wave consisting of complex harmonics (each metal having its own harmonic).

A. G. Maisey · 10th November 2011, 09:18 PM

Pusaka, I have absolutely no idea at all of what this particular bronze was called in early England, I don't even know precisely what period, so I don't even know what language was being used.

Today, in the English language, we refer to a very broad range of copper alloys as bronze, I have no idea how these alloys were referred to in old England.

The sound of a gong is dependent upon the material used as well as the skill of the maker. Brass gongs sound very tinny, they have no resonance. Bronze gongs have full rich sound that you can feel in your gut.

I've seen gongs being made on many occasions, it is an incredibly skilful --- and impressive ---process, particularly with big gongs. It is beyond my understanding how the master of gong forge manages to get the tone and pitch exactly right.

David · 11th November 2011, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

It is called multiphonics, a percussion instrument made from an alloy consisting of several metals when struck gives out a sound wave consisting of complex harmonics (each metal having its own harmonic).

Yes Pusaka, i am aware of this. My point is that there is no particular sonic reason why one of those metals needs to be gold in order to create a superior sounding gong.

Pusaka · 11th November 2011, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes Pusaka, i am aware of this. My point is that there is no particular sonic reason why one of those metals needs to be gold in order to create a superior sounding gong.

You could also say there is no sonic reason why silver, copper, Iron or any one of the five ingredients should be included!

Perhaps the “panca datu” instruments in the possession of the royal courts are thought to sound better then the bronze ones for the same reason why antique “panchaloha” Tibetan bowls are thought to sound better then modern bronze ones.

David · 11th November 2011, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

You could also say there is no sonic reason why silver, copper, Iron or any one of the five ingredients should be included!

Perhaps the “panca datu” instruments in the possession of the royal courts are thought to sound better then the bronze ones for the same reason why antique “panchaloha” Tibetan bowls are thought to sound better then modern bronze ones.

Well, as i posted before there is some doubt according to a study by Oxford University whether there is really any gold content at all in these antique Tibetan bowls. Perhaps the gold content in "pancu datu" gamelan is also a myth. Perhaps it's just the idea of gold that is important to people. Makes them feel good just thinking it's there. What we do know is that Mr. Maisey seem to have a similar pendok to yours that does not tarnish, yet when tested it shows absolutely no gold content. And after all, that is what this thread is about, isn't it, whether or not there is some kind of gold content in your pendok that keeps it from tarnishing. I believe that the only way for you to answer that question is to have your pendok tested as Mr. Maisey did.

A. G. Maisey · 11th November 2011, 02:59 AM

I'm going to make a comment here that is not directly pertinent to gongs, nor indeed to percussion instruments in general, but to my mind, it is relevant to the the tonal qualities of various metals used in musical instruments.

I've played flute for about 40 years. I can't say I'm much of an artist:- I'm not, and the flutes I have range from terracotta and bambu to a good C flute with a solid silver head joint. Amongst flautists there has been ongoing discussion for as long as I can remember about the relative tonal qualities of the various metals used for flutes. I won't go into these arguments, it could fill this website, but the crux of the matter is this:- James Galway, is recognised as a very good flautist, and he has gone on record as saying that he cannot tell the difference by listening to a CD of his performance which flute he is playing:- gold, silver, silver plate, tin. Other elite flautists can produce the tone of a gold flute from a silver flute by using embouchure variations. It is generally agreed that the important factors are craftsmanship in the making of the flute, and skill in its playing.

Maybe one of the reasons why a silver flute sounds better in the hands of a hack than a factory produced plated flute is because greater care has been taken in its production.

Maybe the reason why brass gongs sound tinny is because greater care is taken in production of bronze gongs.

Maybe extreme care is taken in production of a gong that contains gold, and maybe only very good artists get to play those gongs containing gold, thus they always sound superior.

Gustav · 11th November 2011, 10:31 AM

Here some excerpts from a text, accompanying Ki Mantle Hood's field gamelan recordings (1957-58), released by a very serious label:

Over the centuries, expensive bronze metal has been associated with royalty, wealthy patrons and land owners. Rural communities of modest economic means use inferior, less costly metals such as brass and iron for gamelan construction.
(...)

The gongsmit is a venerated member of Javanese society entrusted with the very important job of gamelan construction as he works with a medium believed to connect the human world with the spirit world. On the neighbouring island of Bali, the Prakempa, a 19th century palm-leaf manuscript about gamelan, outlines the relation between struck bronze and the human spirit. The text describes the sonic affect of struck bronze on a person's inner qualities (sanubari). This is what alters a person's spirit when gamelan music is heard. It is also what motivates people to learn music. According to this Balinese manuscript, a gongsmit or gamelan teacher must be aware that bronze has the power to affect individual's inner qualities (Hood, Made Mantle - Triguna: a Hindu-Balinese Philosophy for Gamelan Gong Geded Music. Unpublished Dissertation, University of Cologne, 2005).

Bronze instruments have contributed to the "survival" of inimitable tuning systems or laras in today's increasingly homogenised, predominantly western diatonic urban soundscape. Gamelan forged from good quality bronze has resisted some of this onslaught because of the crystallization process of the bronze metal itself.

When Gamelan is newly forged (not cast), gongs and keys are tuned by scraping and cold-hammering their surfaces and undersides until the desired fine-tuning is accomplished. After the entire orchestra is fine-tuned, it is played for about a year, the bronze metal enduring repeated strikes from player's hard wooden or paddled mallets during rehearsal and performance. After approximately a year has passed, a gongsmit will once again scrape and hammer any keys or kettlegongs that need adjustment. Depending on how often the gamelan is played, it will be another four or five years before the instruments require another fine-tuning. With the passing of each year, the mollecules of smelted tin and copper become more dense, compact and the metal begins to crystallize, becoming harder, and thus more stable in holding its tone. By the time a good quality gamelan reaches 30 years of age, its tuning has become quite stable indeed, requiring only small adjustments and occasional key or gong replacements (also Hood (2005:77-79).

This does not mean that laras are perfectly preserved, representing tuning systems hundreds of years old in ancient gamelan orchestras. Each generation of tuners that put their smithing tools in action has different reference ponts, personal preference, and an altering sound-scape surrounding them. However, bronze instruments have the added advantage of relative fixity in tuning, unlike string or wind instruments that mutate with contemporary Indonesia's homogenized palette of musical sound. Despite the decline in gamelan tuning diversity in Central Java, as of yet there is no equal or well- tempered tuning system.

10th November 2011, 06:08 PM	#3
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	It is called multiphonics, a percussion instrument made from an alloy consisting of several metals when struck gives out a sound wave consisting of complex harmonics (each metal having its own harmonic).

10th November 2011, 09:18 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Pusaka, I have absolutely no idea at all of what this particular bronze was called in early England, I don't even know precisely what period, so I don't even know what language was being used. Today, in the English language, we refer to a very broad range of copper alloys as bronze, I have no idea how these alloys were referred to in old England. The sound of a gong is dependent upon the material used as well as the skill of the maker. Brass gongs sound very tinny, they have no resonance. Bronze gongs have full rich sound that you can feel in your gut. I've seen gongs being made on many occasions, it is an incredibly skilful --- and impressive ---process, particularly with big gongs. It is beyond my understanding how the master of gong forge manages to get the tone and pitch exactly right.

11th November 2011, 02:59 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I'm going to make a comment here that is not directly pertinent to gongs, nor indeed to percussion instruments in general, but to my mind, it is relevant to the the tonal qualities of various metals used in musical instruments. I've played flute for about 40 years. I can't say I'm much of an artist:- I'm not, and the flutes I have range from terracotta and bambu to a good C flute with a solid silver head joint. Amongst flautists there has been ongoing discussion for as long as I can remember about the relative tonal qualities of the various metals used for flutes. I won't go into these arguments, it could fill this website, but the crux of the matter is this:- James Galway, is recognised as a very good flautist, and he has gone on record as saying that he cannot tell the difference by listening to a CD of his performance which flute he is playing:- gold, silver, silver plate, tin. Other elite flautists can produce the tone of a gold flute from a silver flute by using embouchure variations. It is generally agreed that the important factors are craftsmanship in the making of the flute, and skill in its playing. Maybe one of the reasons why a silver flute sounds better in the hands of a hack than a factory produced plated flute is because greater care has been taken in its production. Maybe the reason why brass gongs sound tinny is because greater care is taken in production of bronze gongs. Maybe extreme care is taken in production of a gong that contains gold, and maybe only very good artists get to play those gongs containing gold, thus they always sound superior.

11th November 2011, 10:31 AM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Here some excerpts from a text, accompanying Ki Mantle Hood's field gamelan recordings (1957-58), released by a very serious label: Over the centuries, expensive bronze metal has been associated with royalty, wealthy patrons and land owners. Rural communities of modest economic means use inferior, less costly metals such as brass and iron for gamelan construction. (...) The gongsmit is a venerated member of Javanese society entrusted with the very important job of gamelan construction as he works with a medium believed to connect the human world with the spirit world. On the neighbouring island of Bali, the Prakempa, a 19th century palm-leaf manuscript about gamelan, outlines the relation between struck bronze and the human spirit. The text describes the sonic affect of struck bronze on a person's inner qualities (sanubari). This is what alters a person's spirit when gamelan music is heard. It is also what motivates people to learn music. According to this Balinese manuscript, a gongsmit or gamelan teacher must be aware that bronze has the power to affect individual's inner qualities (Hood, Made Mantle - Triguna: a Hindu-Balinese Philosophy for Gamelan Gong Geded Music. Unpublished Dissertation, University of Cologne, 2005). Bronze instruments have contributed to the "survival" of inimitable tuning systems or laras in today's increasingly homogenised, predominantly western diatonic urban soundscape. Gamelan forged from good quality bronze has resisted some of this onslaught because of the crystallization process of the bronze metal itself. When Gamelan is newly forged (not cast), gongs and keys are tuned by scraping and cold-hammering their surfaces and undersides until the desired fine-tuning is accomplished. After the entire orchestra is fine-tuned, it is played for about a year, the bronze metal enduring repeated strikes from player's hard wooden or paddled mallets during rehearsal and performance. After approximately a year has passed, a gongsmit will once again scrape and hammer any keys or kettlegongs that need adjustment. Depending on how often the gamelan is played, it will be another four or five years before the instruments require another fine-tuning. With the passing of each year, the mollecules of smelted tin and copper become more dense, compact and the metal begins to crystallize, becoming harder, and thus more stable in holding its tone. By the time a good quality gamelan reaches 30 years of age, its tuning has become quite stable indeed, requiring only small adjustments and occasional key or gong replacements (also Hood (2005:77-79). This does not mean that laras are perfectly preserved, representing tuning systems hundreds of years old in ancient gamelan orchestras. Each generation of tuners that put their smithing tools in action has different reference ponts, personal preference, and an altering sound-scape surrounding them. However, bronze instruments have the added advantage of relative fixity in tuning, unlike string or wind instruments that mutate with contemporary Indonesia's homogenized palette of musical sound. Despite the decline in gamelan tuning diversity in Central Java, as of yet there is no equal or well- tempered tuning system.