Evidence for fake Moro Kris / Keris Sundang?

[kai]

Originally Posted by Rick

My criteria is that if it is not made within the culture then it is either an interpretation or copy .

Hi Rick,

I guess you make exceptions if a member from another ethnic group goes through the proper training (within the culture) and continues faithfully the (once indigenous) forging tradition? (IIRC a few western bladesmiths claim to have received traditional Japanese sword forging skills.)

I believe Cecil's are made in country (Philippines), but are they interpretations because most likely they were made by Christian Filipinos rather than Muslims ?

http://www.kriscutlery.com/philippin...x_sundang.html - rhetoric question?

IMVHO countries with many ethnic groups/tribes/peoples/religions/whatever have several cultures which may be as foreign to each other as some of them are to us.

I've never considered the usual keris-inspired blades (wether punal-sized or swords) from the northern Philippines to be Kris nor Keris.

However, there seem to be relatively faithful interpretations which I feel might qualify to be called Kris supposedly coming from non-Muslim Moro neighbors: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7330603936

Any comments? What are the oldest examples of this type?

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Hi Kai,

My best guess on the Visayan example you presented a link to is that it is indeed a Moro blade in Visayan dress .
Unfortunately the picture is miniscule .

Rick

[Spunjer]

Here is (IMNSHO) another Indian one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...item=7335765380

yup, that's the same exact one like mine, down to the scabbard...

here's an example of a visayan kris:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1300.


zelbone would be the man to answer your questions ...

[zamboanga]

Hi everyone,

Been away from the forum for some due to a local dengue outbreak and a typhoon (that's 3rd world conditions for you.)

here's my question: if kris cutlery krises were to be available in the local market (here in zamboanga, basilan or jolo) will the tausugs buy them and keep them as they would a locally-made kris? i really doubt it. they would not even buy a yakan-made pira, how much more for a christian made reproduction.

kai, as to your question on whether there are newly made krises with separate gangyas, yes there are and the ones i have seen come from jolo and not basilan.

as to the datus, they would commission a kris or a barong whether times were good or bad. for a good sword is a status symbol and nothing is as important to a moro as showing of his status.

[kai]

Originally Posted by zamboanga

kai, as to your question on whether there are newly made krises with separate gangyas, yes there are and the ones i have seen come from jolo and not basilan.

Thanks, that's important news! Do you have by any chance pics of these which you could post? Any tell-tale signs for these? TIA!

Regards,
Kai

[Federico]

Originally Posted by zamboanga

kai, as to your question on whether there are newly made krises with separate gangyas, yes there are and the ones i have seen come from jolo and not basilan.

Would also be interested in seeing pics. Ive seen some pretty nice post WWII kris (ivory, pamor, etc...) come from Sulu, but none with separate gangyas. But then Ive seen alot of what I thought, and others (like Cecil Quirino) had thought re-hilted blades, old blade new Tausug fittings. Then I suppose we may have all been in the dark.

[zamboanga]

From a friend's collection and not for sale. Newly made sulu piece specially commissioned for a child.

Separate gangya. 15.5 inches blade, 21 inches overall. with silver fittings.

It has a larger brother which I hope to have in due time.

I also have an older one (post ww2) with separate gangya but i cannot post it here in deference to forum rules.

[Federico]

Originally Posted by zamboanga

From a friend's collection and not for sale. Newly made sulu piece specially commissioned for a child.

Separate gangya. 15.5 inches blade, 21 inches overall. with silver fittings.

It has a larger brother which I hope to have in due time.

I also have an older one (post ww2) with separate gangya but i cannot post it here in deference to forum rules.

Thanks for the pics. I noticed this one and the older one both have separation lines that end a little steeper than the 45 degrees we normally associate with 19th early 20th century pieces, almost 90 degrees. Now this brings to question, is this a re-emergence of the separate gangya, or did they never dissappear. Why the loss of the separate gangya for some? Any more info behind these swords?

[ThePepperSkull]

Originally Posted by zamboanga

Hi everyone,

Been away from the forum for some due to a local dengue outbreak and a typhoon (that's 3rd world conditions for you.)

here's my question: if kris cutlery krises were to be available in the local market (here in zamboanga, basilan or jolo) will the tausugs buy them and keep them as they would a locally-made kris? i really doubt it. they would not even buy a yakan-made pira, how much more for a christian made reproduction.

kai, as to your question on whether there are newly made krises with separate gangyas, yes there are and the ones i have seen come from jolo and not basilan.

as to the datus, they would commission a kris or a barong whether times were good or bad. for a good sword is a status symbol and nothing is as important to a moro as showing of his status.

Is this a statement on the quality of the pira or the region being innapropriate/not native to the blade shape? I was under the impression that the Pira was a native blade to the Yakan. At least I see a lot of older Yakan-made Pira.

[kai]

Is this a statement on the quality of the pira or the region being innapropriate/not native to the blade shape?

Sorrily, Caloy hasn't been active for quite a long time, so I'll try to answer: A Tausug would prefer a Tausug piece rather than a sword perceived to be typical for another ethnic group (e. g. Yakan).

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

Also, the reproduction/non-traditionally made ones do not interest the Moros today.

[kai]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

here's an example of a visayan kris:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1300.

Hi Spunjer,

That's an example of those blades which I don't consider to be Kris (nor Keris Sundang). It's a nice Sundang/sword with a wavy blade but IMHO it doesn't have any of the characteristic features of a Moro Kris.

Regards,
Kai

[Spunjer]

Hi Spunjer,

That's an example of those blades which I don't consider to be Kris (nor Keris Sundang). It's a nice Sundang/sword with a wavy blade but IMHO it doesn't have any of the characteristic features of a Moro Kris.

Regards,
Kai

well then, i think this thread might interest you :

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001969.html