West African ? sword for I.D. and comment.

Mauro · 17th October 2011, 02:10 PM

This is a quite interesting topic because it deals with the characteristics that can be used to create a hierarchy of more or less related items, in this case swords. To put a clear cut between groups is usually an individual process with a certain, sometimes large, degree of subjectivity. In this case one could also find similarities between some short Takouba and these swords. Kaskaras for example have also a scabbard that has more similarities with the Mandingo sword than these other ones where the scabbard has not an enlargement. However, in general I agree with you although I would easily say that Mende and Toma are closer than Mandingo.

Martin Lubojacky · 18th October 2011, 12:34 AM

Thank you very much for this interesting discussion, which I enjoyed a lot, just reading and learning (unfortunately nothing to add). I would be very interested in Briggs work on Saharan takoubas...(it may be there would be some info about the sword - see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=190791 - which is still a small mystery to me)
Regards,
Martin

Martin Lubojacky · 18th October 2011, 12:40 AM

Sorry for the wrong link (I was trying to find old thread from the list) - correct should be http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12296

Iain · 18th October 2011, 09:06 AM

Hi Martin, unfortunately Briggs has nothing really about your sword, it is really only a detailed article about . If you want I can scan and send you a copy - I have the papers somewhere in my house and will try to find them for you!

Mauro, I agree, it's very subjective topic and I would agree there are many connections also with takouba. The Sahel region was/is very interconnected and their trade routes extended into West Africa. The half moons and the triple fullers on these Toma and Mende swords are clearly taken I think from the takouba. For example I have also a Lobi ceremonial sword which is exactly in the same style as a takouba, so this style had a huge influence across this area of Africa. Wolf and Martin also have some interesting Mandara/Cameroon swords that seem related as well.

Martin Lubojacky · 18th October 2011, 12:58 PM

Thank you in advance Iain !

Iain · 18th October 2011, 01:05 PM

No problem, I forgot to write that article really only has detail about European trade blades. Almost nothing about native blades.

colin henshaw · 25th October 2011, 03:39 PM

Hi

Thanks to Iain and Mauro for their responses to my post about possible European influence to the hilts of some West African swords. Truth be told, I made the comparison to rondel daggers slightly "tongue in cheek" !

However its an interesting discussion, so I would like to counter some of the objections made and try to advance my theory...

Quote "do we have any reason to suspect it required outside influence to create this hilt form"

Given the propensity in West Africa to mimic European forms, particularly in regard to weapons, (we have already seen several examples), this possibility must be looked at, to arrive at an objective conclusion.

Its worth noting that in East Africa, where European contact, particularly in the hinterland was very much later, this form of hilt with a guard is not found. Seme and similar sword hilts there are straight sided - as are Omani kattarra sword hilts (but this may just be coincidence).

Regarding Ashanti/Akan hilts - there is clear evidence of some copying of European forms- here are a couple of images from a recent visit to the Wallace Collection in London.

The Mende also made copies of European swords and muskets, but in wood.

Food for thought, and looking forward to more ideas on this subject....

Regards.

colin henshaw · 26th October 2011, 08:04 PM

Hi Iain

Thanks for your speedy response to my last post.

Quote "any pictures of the Mende sword copies ?"

Here are a couple of images from "Illustrated Catalogue of Ethnographical Specimens - W O Oldman"

Regards

25th October 2011, 03:39 PM	#7
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Hi Thanks to Iain and Mauro for their responses to my post about possible European influence to the hilts of some West African swords. Truth be told, I made the comparison to rondel daggers slightly "tongue in cheek" ! However its an interesting discussion, so I would like to counter some of the objections made and try to advance my theory... Quote "do we have any reason to suspect it required outside influence to create this hilt form" Given the propensity in West Africa to mimic European forms, particularly in regard to weapons, (we have already seen several examples), this possibility must be looked at, to arrive at an objective conclusion. Its worth noting that in East Africa, where European contact, particularly in the hinterland was very much later, this form of hilt with a guard is not found. Seme and similar sword hilts there are straight sided - as are Omani kattarra sword hilts (but this may just be coincidence). Regarding Ashanti/Akan hilts - there is clear evidence of some copying of European forms- here are a couple of images from a recent visit to the Wallace Collection in London. The Mende also made copies of European swords and muskets, but in wood. Food for thought, and looking forward to more ideas on this subject.... Regards. Attached Images

26th October 2011, 08:04 PM	#8
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Hi Iain Thanks for your speedy response to my last post. Quote "any pictures of the Mende sword copies ?" Here are a couple of images from "Illustrated Catalogue of Ethnographical Specimens - W O Oldman" Regards Attached Images

17th October 2011, 02:10 PM	#1
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	This is a quite interesting topic because it deals with the characteristics that can be used to create a hierarchy of more or less related items, in this case swords. To put a clear cut between groups is usually an individual process with a certain, sometimes large, degree of subjectivity. In this case one could also find similarities between some short Takouba and these swords. Kaskaras for example have also a scabbard that has more similarities with the Mandingo sword than these other ones where the scabbard has not an enlargement. However, in general I agree with you although I would easily say that Mende and Toma are closer than Mandingo.

18th October 2011, 12:34 AM	#2
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Thank you very much for this interesting discussion, which I enjoyed a lot, just reading and learning (unfortunately nothing to add). I would be very interested in Briggs work on Saharan takoubas...(it may be there would be some info about the sword - see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=190791 - which is still a small mystery to me) Regards, Martin

18th October 2011, 12:40 AM	#3
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Sorry for the wrong link (I was trying to find old thread from the list) - correct should be http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12296

18th October 2011, 09:06 AM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	Hi Martin, unfortunately Briggs has nothing really about your sword, it is really only a detailed article about . If you want I can scan and send you a copy - I have the papers somewhere in my house and will try to find them for you! Mauro, I agree, it's very subjective topic and I would agree there are many connections also with takouba. The Sahel region was/is very interconnected and their trade routes extended into West Africa. The half moons and the triple fullers on these Toma and Mende swords are clearly taken I think from the takouba. For example I have also a Lobi ceremonial sword which is exactly in the same style as a takouba, so this style had a huge influence across this area of Africa. Wolf and Martin also have some interesting Mandara/Cameroon swords that seem related as well.

18th October 2011, 12:58 PM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Thank you in advance Iain !

18th October 2011, 01:05 PM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	No problem, I forgot to write that article really only has detail about European trade blades. Almost nothing about native blades.