Please help to ID a mark on Yataghan.

laEspadaAncha · 16th October 2011, 06:23 PM

What a perfect pair to represent the role of North African corsairs and the Ottoman empire in Mediterranean trade at the time!

Welcome to the forum, BTW... Joe, now you're just a schiavona, old Templar's sword, bichaq, and a Mediterranean dirk shy of a full set…

A question for Jim & Ibrahilm:

In the photo of the obverse of the nimcha - with the original hilt - there is some type of stirrup wrapped underneath the quillons on either side of the blade. What is this? I don't recall seeing a similar fitting on other nimchas?

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2011, 07:27 PM

Excellent observations as always Chris! I hadn't noticed that 'strap' or whatever it is. While there are several variations on these 'nimchas' with either pitones, or the so called 'Zanzibar' form with the ring loop over the blade, I cant say Ive ever seen a feature like that either. Would be interesting to learn more about this and if anyone else has seen anything like it.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2011, 09:28 PM

Fascinated by the topic at hand, and particularly Malta, could not resist looking further into the history which may be imbued in the aged patina of these two swords. The Order of Malta has a long proud history, and their conflicts with the Ottomans extended fare beyond the Seige in 1565. The fleet contributed to the destruction of the Ottoman fleet at Lepanto in 1571. I have attached illustrations of a ship of the fleet of the Order in combat with at Ottoman ship off Alger in 1719.
The history of the Meditteranean would be far less colorful without tales of the Barbary pirates, and these weapons, despite probably being of later date than hoped, as mentioned certainly are likely to be from this period in the early 19th century. The unfortunate condition (now wonderfully resolved) these weapons were found in makes it difficult to assess actual age by photos, but it seems by visual features these correspond to 19th century examples from what I can see.

Joe082 · 17th October 2011, 06:46 PM

Dear all,
Thanks for the immediate response.
In my description I commited a mistake (Maths is not my forte) and wrote that the Ottoman army withdrew 497 years ago from the Siege of Malta. I must correct this to 447 years.

Ibrahim; Salaam to you. The restoration process was not my doing but I left it in the expert hands of my sword master and mentor. Like you said, following the rust removal they have been coated in transparent grease to keep out the humidity.

To Chris and Jim: The "stirrup" feature you noticed around the Nimcha's quillons and handle had nothing to do with the sword. It was just a vulgar piece of metal wire wrapped around it in an attempt to hold the blade and handle together. You can see a similar attempt around the Yataghan's handle (when they were still together).

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed with the estimated age of the weapons. Still; they are very precious to me. In the Knight's Armoury in Valletta I have seen identical versions of the Nimcha / Saif - See attached pictures. They are behind the Janissary (correct me if I'm wrong about the armour)

Jim Could you provide more information about the mark of acceptance you mentioned? Is it possible that any armourer marks are beneath the patina? - Don't worry, I won't dare remove it.

Regards
Joe

Norman McCormick · 17th October 2011, 11:51 PM

Hi Joe,
My apologies for digressing and hijacking your interesting thread but would it be possible, at some time in the future, for you to photograph in more detail the two Ottoman maces that are on the floor of the showcase in your second photo. I normally wouldn't presume to impose on you but I have just acquired an Ottoman mace and am having difficulty finding images of similar items. If it is not possible then I will fully understand.
Regards,
Norman.

Zifir · 20th October 2011, 10:40 AM

Although not being entirely sure, the marker's mark on the yatağan reads as "amel-i Muhammed" (made by Muhammed).

Joe082 · 20th October 2011, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Joe,
My apologies for digressing and hijacking your interesting thread but would it be possible, at some time in the future, for you to photograph in more detail the two Ottoman maces that are on the floor of the showcase in your second photo. I normally wouldn't presume to impose on you but I have just acquired an Ottoman mace and am having difficulty finding images of similar items. If it is not possible then I will fully understand.
Regards,
Norman.

I'll try to remember next time I visit the museum.
In the meantime below is a picture I found through a google search. It looks similar but I cannot be sure it is the same type of mace.
Regards
Joe

16th October 2011, 09:28 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,671	Fascinated by the topic at hand, and particularly Malta, could not resist looking further into the history which may be imbued in the aged patina of these two swords. The Order of Malta has a long proud history, and their conflicts with the Ottomans extended fare beyond the Seige in 1565. The fleet contributed to the destruction of the Ottoman fleet at Lepanto in 1571. I have attached illustrations of a ship of the fleet of the Order in combat with at Ottoman ship off Alger in 1719. The history of the Meditteranean would be far less colorful without tales of the Barbary pirates, and these weapons, despite probably being of later date than hoped, as mentioned certainly are likely to be from this period in the early 19th century. The unfortunate condition (now wonderfully resolved) these weapons were found in makes it difficult to assess actual age by photos, but it seems by visual features these correspond to 19th century examples from what I can see. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th October 2011 at 10:15 PM.

17th October 2011, 06:46 PM	#4
Joe082 Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Malta (Europe) Posts: 6	Corrections and clarifications Dear all, Thanks for the immediate response. In my description I commited a mistake (Maths is not my forte) and wrote that the Ottoman army withdrew 497 years ago from the Siege of Malta. I must correct this to 447 years. Ibrahim; Salaam to you. The restoration process was not my doing but I left it in the expert hands of my sword master and mentor. Like you said, following the rust removal they have been coated in transparent grease to keep out the humidity. To Chris and Jim: The "stirrup" feature you noticed around the Nimcha's quillons and handle had nothing to do with the sword. It was just a vulgar piece of metal wire wrapped around it in an attempt to hold the blade and handle together. You can see a similar attempt around the Yataghan's handle (when they were still together). I have to say I'm a bit disappointed with the estimated age of the weapons. Still; they are very precious to me. In the Knight's Armoury in Valletta I have seen identical versions of the Nimcha / Saif - See attached pictures. They are behind the Janissary (correct me if I'm wrong about the armour) Jim Could you provide more information about the mark of acceptance you mentioned? Is it possible that any armourer marks are beneath the patina? - Don't worry, I won't dare remove it. Regards Joe Attached Images

16th October 2011, 06:23 PM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	What a perfect pair to represent the role of North African corsairs and the Ottoman empire in Mediterranean trade at the time! Welcome to the forum, BTW... Joe, now you're just a schiavona, old Templar's sword, bichaq, and a Mediterranean dirk shy of a full set… A question for Jim & Ibrahilm: In the photo of the obverse of the nimcha - with the original hilt - there is some type of stirrup wrapped underneath the quillons on either side of the blade. What is this? I don't recall seeing a similar fitting on other nimchas?

16th October 2011, 07:27 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,671	Excellent observations as always Chris! I hadn't noticed that 'strap' or whatever it is. While there are several variations on these 'nimchas' with either pitones, or the so called 'Zanzibar' form with the ring loop over the blade, I cant say Ive ever seen a feature like that either. Would be interesting to learn more about this and if anyone else has seen anything like it. All the best, Jim

17th October 2011, 11:51 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,646	Hi Joe, My apologies for digressing and hijacking your interesting thread but would it be possible, at some time in the future, for you to photograph in more detail the two Ottoman maces that are on the floor of the showcase in your second photo. I normally wouldn't presume to impose on you but I have just acquired an Ottoman mace and am having difficulty finding images of similar items. If it is not possible then I will fully understand. Regards, Norman.

20th October 2011, 10:40 AM	#6
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Although not being entirely sure, the marker's mark on the yatağan reads as "amel-i Muhammed" (made by Muhammed).