Polish L-guard sword: restoration project

fernando · 7th October 2011, 12:53 PM

Welcome to the forum, Janusz.
Splendid material you got in your website

.
If you search for 'navaja' here in our forum, you will find pictures of some old examples and respective discussion.

-

Ypoznan · 7th October 2011, 03:44 PM

Thank you for the welcome Fernando.

Oh! I know this forum (when it comes to topics concerning Navajas). It is extremely interesting. I think everything has already read, especially interesting statements colleague Chris Evans. The first time I came to you has just a year ago in search of information about Navajas - but I registered only today.

Thank you very much for your warm words about my site. I hope that you liked.

broadaxe · 7th October 2011, 05:11 PM

As far as I know, we cannot speak of true "cossack saber", as they were part of a larger area and have adopted the arms found wherever they were. I think our friend Wolviex can elaborate.
Janusz, great site. I wrote a short essay myself about the navaja, alas I'm afraid automatic translator do not work well with Hebrew... http://www.collect.co.il/content.aspx?id=187

Jim McDougall · 7th October 2011, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

As far as I know, we cannot speak of true "cossack saber", as they were part of a larger area and have adopted the arms found wherever they were. I think our friend Wolviex can elaborate.
Janusz, great site. I wrote a short essay myself about the navaja, alas I'm afraid automatic translator do not work well with Hebrew... http://www.collect.co.il/content.aspx?id=187

First of all, Janusz I would like to join in welcoming you to our forum! and thank you for the extra effort in communicating in English, which is greatly appreciated, outstanding job!
I wish of friend Wolviex was still posting here as he was a most valuable contributor and our key insight into Polish arms and armour. We have not seen him in some time and hopefully he will return.

Well made point by Broadaxe, it would be difficult to classify a particular weapon or style of weapon to any of the Cossack hosts, as typically they were amalgams of various ethnic groups and of course used weaponry as available. In the case of our discussion here, it seems of course that this sabre is likely as I earlier suggested, mid 17th century and probably of Polish-Lithuanian origin. The original question asked if the blade was Genoan, to which I noted this was unlikely and more probably a Styrian blade ( as best as I can see no suggestion of Lvov production).
The exacavations at Beretschko from the 1651 battle provided about 41 sabres, three of which I believe were this type. Obviously the Polish-Lithuanian types suggest use by probably both Polish forces and Zaporozhian.As this host was also largely comprised of expatriates from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth it supports that these may well have been in Cossack hands as well.

Thank you again for joining us and very much look forward to your posts!

All best regards,
Jim

Ypoznan · 7th October 2011, 10:40 PM

Hello again. At the beginning I apologize for the delay in showing to my answer. Unfortunately, as a new member of the forum I have to wait until a moderator approves them. Surely you know these rules so please bear with me.

Overall, I thank you for your kind words on my part about Navajas. It's a lot to me. I'm very glad that you like.

@broadaxe
Very interesting article, congratulations. You can see that you put a lot of work into it.

I do not know how to translate from Hebrew to Polish is right but I saw some details that in the light of my knowledge may be controversial. Let me specify comments.

- Most supplementation of the date of creation is a breakthrough classic Navajas seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. However, in the development of Rafael Martinez de Peral y Forton "Las Navajas. Un Estudio y una Colección. "I found the information that in Mexico, already in 1590, in Pueblo de Los Angeles artist producing work Navajas. Cuchillero this came to the New World from Spain. This shows that even before this year in Spain acted Cuchilleros producing Navajas.
-Not all classic Navajas had bent handle, but actually it is a characteristic feature of these knives. There were many Navajas with straight handles, such as Navaja Marinera.
-Most Navajas, especially in the nineteenth century did not have a lock or lock type de piston or de Varilla - something similar to slipjoint. This was a consequence penal provisions. System "carraca" was popular but not universal.
- On the second picture is visible Navaja coming from France. Very characteristic for the Creators of Thiers. This is not a Spanish Navaja. On the third picture we see the French Navaja. Brand suggesting that comes with Zaragoza is false. Probably also comes with Thiers.

Very sorry if you misunderstood the content of your text. The translation is terrible. I hope you do not feel offended by my comments. Of course I do not consider myself an expert - I am only a hobbyist.

@Jim McDougall
I will try to post some more information about these types of sabers, and can picture (if I find), but please a little patience. For now, I do not see the preview of my message and they must be approved. How do I pass my probationary period to supplement the data. In the course of my ability.

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Janusz

broadaxe · 8th October 2011, 01:38 PM

Janusz, I'm not offended at all. My article was a side-effect caused by preparation for two seperate exhibitions, each held 2-3 navajas, and a demand from me to submit a simple article, not in-depth, for the general art-loving public. I had the opportunity to check the items in photos in person. Navajas are not my field of expertise nor a hobby, just a point of interest in the vast ocean of arms & armor. I hope to see posts from you regarding this field in other threads, let's keep this one with the Polish saber.

Gavin Nugent · 8th October 2011, 02:02 PM

Below is a stunning little 7" x 9" water colour in my collections.

I understand the artist is French and it is signed and dated from the start of the 19th century. Note the 'L' guard type sabre hung from the middle horseman.

The image is a little out of focus. When I have it returned from the gent who is conserving/cleaning it for me I'll try to show a little more detail on the sword.

I suspect at face value they are Polish or Lithuanian Tatars though I am sure artistic license abounds....feel free to correct my attribution.

Gav

Ypoznan · 9th October 2011, 08:41 AM

@broadaxe
Of course you're right. Let us return to the topic saber.

I would like to show you some pictures that show this type of sword. Photos come from the books and topics dealing with the Polish sword, therefore, are images that show has just Polish sabers. The information that I could find say that the sword such as used in both infantry and cavalry (hussars, even).

In the typology of penetrating marked influence each other and the formation of specific types of swords. In the middle window shows Polish uniforms (Polska), "Wschód" = east, "Zachód" = west.

Image is a replica saber hilt by Andrzej Mikiciuk. Drawings and typology of the books: Włodzimierz Kwaśniewicz "1000 słów o broni białej i uzbrojeniu ochronnym" (1000 words with melee weapons and protective armor) and Wojciech Zabłocki, "Cięcia prawdziwą szablą " (Cuts a real sword). Drawings showing the Polish infantry from the seventeenth century and the Polish nobleman found on the web.

ZEKIR · 21st January 2012, 05:48 PM

Gentlemen,
Trying to establish whether the sabre is Polish or Ukrainian is a bit tough.

The type of blade and the handle is of Polish type but it could have been used by anyone within the Sarmathian culture. (Sarmathian Culture - I mean the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth of XVI-XIXc that Ukraine was a part of).

Big part of Cossacs were part of the State Register - which means they received money from The State to purchase a saddle, "uniform", guns, powder, tobacco, to support a horse etc.
Other Cossacs would be hired by big landlords and equipped in a uniform fashion, where the colors of their garments would be identical and the weapons would follow an identical design (made usually by one manufacture belonging to the landlord).

There were other cossacs as well who fought for expanding of the State Register. They were not a part of any state or private structure and wore any weapon that was in use in the region back then, which could have been Polish, Persian, Turkich, Indian, Georgian, German - whatever.
Plus! If not fo Cossacs, Austria would be a muslim country (Polish, Lithuanian forces saved Vienna in 1681) because nobody in the world did a better job fighting Turks. The natural consequence of the military escapades against Turks was an abundance of oriental artifacts (weapons included) all over Poland, Ukraine and Lithuania.

Generating a new brand of Ukrainian Sword is not so easy because the Sarmathian culture - uniting at that time Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians did not really vary from one region to another.
You could see that Hungarians were a bit different in their "practice" of Sarmathism. Even that is not apparent at the first glance.

It is a bit like trying to define an Austrian sub-type of blue jeans. Whatever we say Blue Jeans are American pants no matter who wears them.

Regards,
Zekir

P.S.
The sword is fantastic. It was an expensive artifact judging from the form of the blade. The weapons distributed by landlords to their cossacs are very practical but simple. This particular weapon belonged to a nobleman (Pole, Lithuanian, Hungarian or Ukrainian).

Evgeny_K · 28th January 2012, 08:23 PM

Thank you, Zekir!

Here are some pics of the blade after desalting and Dremel steel brush cleaning

David · 29th January 2012, 01:00 AM

I fear that your restoration approach with this blade may have been far too aggressive...

fspic · 29th January 2012, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I fear that your restoration approach with this blade may have been far too aggressive...

This blade may have been a lost cause before any work was done on it. The only thing that can be done is a chemical cleaning, filing smooth and then finding a way to fill in the pits with metal. I found a shop about five years ago which is willing to try spray welding of on this type of problem. This would be tried in very local areas first. A form of gas welding might work using certain alloys. However it would merely permit re-shaping the blade which would be a reconstruction more than a restoration. It would likely show the alloyed and filed areas as a separate color.

Coin silver has a relatively low melting point. Zinc is even lower. If you are really desperate and have the resources it might be possible to use these metals in sequence. Even an electroplate could be used to fill the final top layer of a filled blade. After finishing the blade would merely look "old and not maintained" instead of like a total disaster. The object is to merely restore the shape and appearance to make a more presentable wall display.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th January 2012, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fspic

This blade may have been a lost cause before any work was done on it. The only thing that can be done is a chemical cleaning, filing smooth and then finding a way to fill in the pits with metal. I found a shop about five years ago which is willing to try spray welding of on this type of problem. This would be tried in very local areas first. A form of gas welding might work using certain alloys. However it would merely permit re-shaping the blade which would be a reconstruction more than a restoration. It would likely show the alloyed and filed areas as a separate color.

Coin silver has a relatively low melting point. Zinc is even lower. If you are really desperate and have the resources it might be possible to use these metals in sequence. Even an electroplate could be used to fill the final top layer of a filled blade. After finishing the blade would merely look "old and not maintained" instead of like a total disaster. The object is to merely restore the shape and appearance to make a more presentable wall display.

Salaams fspic, Ypoznan, Evgeny_K et al~ The electroplating is maybe not a bad idea. What caused the damage? The Dremel or the desalting ?... It looks like it was sandblasted?? I must look up dremel ah ! Its the dreaded power tool in restoration...

I think that may have done the damage. By the way has anyone ever done electrolysis on severely rusted blades? www.instructables.com has a couple of tips for this technique though I have to say with a blade as badly corroded as this was...it was never going to be easy. I would go for a few days in something mild like coke or lemon salt clean it off with soapy water and after drying get it covered in restoration wax.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Evgeny_K · 29th January 2012, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams fspic Ypoznan et al~ The electroplating is maybe not a bad idea. What caused the damage? The Dremel or the desalting ?... It looks like it was sandblasted?? I must look up dremel ah ! Its the dreaded power tool in restoration...

I think that may have done the damage. By the way has anyone ever done electrolysis on severely rusted blades? www.instructable.com has a couple of tips for this technique though I have to say with a blade as badly corroded as this was...it was never going to be easy. I would go for a few days in something mild like coke or lemon salt clean it off with soapy water and after drying get it covered in restoration wax.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Hello Ibrahiim,
Blade was already damaged because saber was dug up.
Desaltination is a necessary procedure to prevent further corrosion of the metal.
I've just removed with dremel brush mellowed rust from the surface of the blade.
Deep caverns already were on the blade when I get it into my hands.

David · 29th January 2012, 05:55 PM

I am not sure that there is ever a time when it is a good idea to go at an old blade with a steel brush on a dremel. I am not opposed to restoration of old blades, but in my view the least invasive approach is generally that best one. My own viewpoint is a bit different from fspic as i believe that for me the object is not to merely create a more attractive wall hanging. Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that i have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.

Evgeny_K · 29th January 2012, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I fear that your restoration approach with this blade may have been far too aggressive...

David, it's not "too agressive"

)
Blade is heavily pitted. I've just deasalt it in the distillated water and clean it gently enough. Now I'm going to process it in the tannin solution (corrosion inhibitor).

7th October 2011, 12:53 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum, Janusz. Splendid material you got in your website . If you search for 'navaja' here in our forum, you will find pictures of some old examples and respective discussion. - Last edited by fernando; 7th October 2011 at 01:07 PM.

8th October 2011, 02:02 PM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Below is a stunning little 7" x 9" water colour in my collections. I understand the artist is French and it is signed and dated from the start of the 19th century. Note the 'L' guard type sabre hung from the middle horseman. The image is a little out of focus. When I have it returned from the gent who is conserving/cleaning it for me I'll try to show a little more detail on the sword. I suspect at face value they are Polish or Lithuanian Tatars though I am sure artistic license abounds....feel free to correct my attribution. Gav Attached Images

9th October 2011, 08:41 AM	#8
Ypoznan Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Poznan, Poland Posts: 16	@broadaxe Of course you're right. Let us return to the topic saber. I would like to show you some pictures that show this type of sword. Photos come from the books and topics dealing with the Polish sword, therefore, are images that show has just Polish sabers. The information that I could find say that the sword such as used in both infantry and cavalry (hussars, even). In the typology of penetrating marked influence each other and the formation of specific types of swords. In the middle window shows Polish uniforms (Polska), "Wschód" = east, "Zachód" = west. Image is a replica saber hilt by Andrzej Mikiciuk. Drawings and typology of the books: Włodzimierz Kwaśniewicz "1000 słów o broni białej i uzbrojeniu ochronnym" (1000 words with melee weapons and protective armor) and Wojciech Zabłocki, "Cięcia prawdziwą szablą " (Cuts a real sword). Drawings showing the Polish infantry from the seventeenth century and the Polish nobleman found on the web. Attached Images

21st January 2012, 05:48 PM	#9
ZEKIR Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1	Evgeny's Sabre Gentlemen, Trying to establish whether the sabre is Polish or Ukrainian is a bit tough. The type of blade and the handle is of Polish type but it could have been used by anyone within the Sarmathian culture. (Sarmathian Culture - I mean the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth of XVI-XIXc that Ukraine was a part of). Big part of Cossacs were part of the State Register - which means they received money from The State to purchase a saddle, "uniform", guns, powder, tobacco, to support a horse etc. Other Cossacs would be hired by big landlords and equipped in a uniform fashion, where the colors of their garments would be identical and the weapons would follow an identical design (made usually by one manufacture belonging to the landlord). There were other cossacs as well who fought for expanding of the State Register. They were not a part of any state or private structure and wore any weapon that was in use in the region back then, which could have been Polish, Persian, Turkich, Indian, Georgian, German - whatever. Plus! If not fo Cossacs, Austria would be a muslim country (Polish, Lithuanian forces saved Vienna in 1681) because nobody in the world did a better job fighting Turks. The natural consequence of the military escapades against Turks was an abundance of oriental artifacts (weapons included) all over Poland, Ukraine and Lithuania. Generating a new brand of Ukrainian Sword is not so easy because the Sarmathian culture - uniting at that time Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians did not really vary from one region to another. You could see that Hungarians were a bit different in their "practice" of Sarmathism. Even that is not apparent at the first glance. It is a bit like trying to define an Austrian sub-type of blue jeans. Whatever we say Blue Jeans are American pants no matter who wears them. Regards, Zekir P.S. The sword is fantastic. It was an expensive artifact judging from the form of the blade. The weapons distributed by landlords to their cossacs are very practical but simple. This particular weapon belonged to a nobleman (Pole, Lithuanian, Hungarian or Ukrainian).

28th January 2012, 08:23 PM	#10
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 216	Thank you, Zekir! Here are some pics of the blade after desalting and Dremel steel brush cleaning Attached Images

7th October 2011, 03:44 PM	#2
Ypoznan Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Poznan, Poland Posts: 16	Thank you for the welcome Fernando. Oh! I know this forum (when it comes to topics concerning Navajas). It is extremely interesting. I think everything has already read, especially interesting statements colleague Chris Evans. The first time I came to you has just a year ago in search of information about Navajas - but I registered only today. Thank you very much for your warm words about my site. I hope that you liked.

7th October 2011, 05:11 PM	#3
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	As far as I know, we cannot speak of true "cossack saber", as they were part of a larger area and have adopted the arms found wherever they were. I think our friend Wolviex can elaborate. Janusz, great site. I wrote a short essay myself about the navaja, alas I'm afraid automatic translator do not work well with Hebrew... http://www.collect.co.il/content.aspx?id=187

7th October 2011, 10:40 PM	#5
Ypoznan Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Poznan, Poland Posts: 16	Hello again. At the beginning I apologize for the delay in showing to my answer. Unfortunately, as a new member of the forum I have to wait until a moderator approves them. Surely you know these rules so please bear with me. Overall, I thank you for your kind words on my part about Navajas. It's a lot to me. I'm very glad that you like. @broadaxe Very interesting article, congratulations. You can see that you put a lot of work into it. I do not know how to translate from Hebrew to Polish is right but I saw some details that in the light of my knowledge may be controversial. Let me specify comments. - Most supplementation of the date of creation is a breakthrough classic Navajas seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. However, in the development of Rafael Martinez de Peral y Forton "Las Navajas. Un Estudio y una Colección. "I found the information that in Mexico, already in 1590, in Pueblo de Los Angeles artist producing work Navajas. Cuchillero this came to the New World from Spain. This shows that even before this year in Spain acted Cuchilleros producing Navajas. -Not all classic Navajas had bent handle, but actually it is a characteristic feature of these knives. There were many Navajas with straight handles, such as Navaja Marinera. -Most Navajas, especially in the nineteenth century did not have a lock or lock type de piston or de Varilla - something similar to slipjoint. This was a consequence penal provisions. System "carraca" was popular but not universal. - On the second picture is visible Navaja coming from France. Very characteristic for the Creators of Thiers. This is not a Spanish Navaja. On the third picture we see the French Navaja. Brand suggesting that comes with Zaragoza is false. Probably also comes with Thiers. Very sorry if you misunderstood the content of your text. The translation is terrible. I hope you do not feel offended by my comments. Of course I do not consider myself an expert - I am only a hobbyist. @Jim McDougall I will try to post some more information about these types of sabers, and can picture (if I find), but please a little patience. For now, I do not see the preview of my message and they must be approved. How do I pass my probationary period to supplement the data. In the course of my ability. Thank you for the warm welcome. Janusz

8th October 2011, 01:38 PM	#6
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Janusz, I'm not offended at all. My article was a side-effect caused by preparation for two seperate exhibitions, each held 2-3 navajas, and a demand from me to submit a simple article, not in-depth, for the general art-loving public. I had the opportunity to check the items in photos in person. Navajas are not my field of expertise nor a hobby, just a point of interest in the vast ocean of arms & armor. I hope to see posts from you regarding this field in other threads, let's keep this one with the Polish saber.

29th January 2012, 01:00 AM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,240	I fear that your restoration approach with this blade may have been far too aggressive...

29th January 2012, 05:55 PM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,240	I am not sure that there is ever a time when it is a good idea to go at an old blade with a steel brush on a dremel. I am not opposed to restoration of old blades, but in my view the least invasive approach is generally that best one. My own viewpoint is a bit different from fspic as i believe that for me the object is not to merely create a more attractive wall hanging. Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that i have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.