Oddly constructed cutlass

M ELEY · 27th April 2010, 02:41 AM

Sorry to visit old ghosts, but after my success with that old Dutch sword, I'd thought I'd give this old one a try as well. It truly appears to be an original piece, meaning, I don't think it's a theatrical or blacksmith piece made for fun. The blade, I think, is older and possibly one of those old Rev War imported (poorer quality) blades. Note the steep swoop on the end & many of this type in Neumann's.

My quandry is the construction. It appears the blade tang was inserted in a corrigated/ribbed iron hollow grip, brass was poured into the space and the sheet guard was folded over the other end and brazed
into place. You can see the darkened brass where the blade intersects the guard/hilt. I have seen one other sword like this that was very similar to the m1803 Brit cutlass, with brass securing the blade near the guard. So, is this just a "one off', made in limited supply, or has anyone else seen a sword with similar construction? There is a very primitive cutlass in Neumanns that has it's hilt tightened with poured lead, creating primitive langets for it, but that one still has the tang passing through the end of the hilt and piened, so not exactly the same thing. Anyway, opinions?

broadaxe · 2nd May 2010, 10:32 PM

Are you sure it is brass indeed? Try to put a small magnet over it, or to make a small fine scratch in order to see the natural metal tone.
From here via the photo it sure looks like filled electric weld.

M ELEY · 3rd May 2010, 01:51 PM

I have a confession to make and I'm not proud of it (

), but the reason I know its brass is because I used a chemical to pickle its color black to match the rest of the sword. The brass was old and yellowed with age when I got it, but contrasted so smartly with the rest of the dark sword and looked like a wad of gum holding the blade in place, so...I altered it to look more appealing. No trickery on my part, just wanted to have a less ugly appearance. So the surface of the brass now looks "off". Unfortunately, I don't know what to do about returning it to its former state. I'm afraid I'll wash away the patina and then it really will look like a "put-together" sword, which I truly don't believe it is.

Does anyone have a suggestion of what I might do to remove the pickling to the brass??

kronckew · 3rd May 2010, 01:53 PM

photos look like it was arc welded, broken at the hilt & 'fixed'? the blade does not look right with that hilt to me.

edited: if it is brass as you posted later it could still be a repair...

Atlantia · 3rd May 2010, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Does anyone have a suggestion of what I might do to remove the pickling to the brass??

What did you use to colour the brass that dark?

M ELEY · 4th May 2010, 12:31 AM

I used a commercial product I bought off the net. I can't remember its name, but it does work nicely. The less you leave it on, the lighter the patina. I used it to also darken a copper-wired small sword hilt (original sword, new wrap).

Yes, this piece has always troubled me in a way. Unfortunately, though, there might still be no closure on its exact origin due to its classification. Privateer swords, axes, pikes, etc, were often prinitive affairs and like espada ancha, were sometimes made from spare parts, older blades, etc. This can be seen again and again in naval pieces. If we assume it was a repair, was it one to fix the blade in modern times? Was it an old repair? Was it made this way from the start as a "one off"? Or is it a fake put together to deceive? I regret staining the brass nuw, because perhaps I might have considered chipping away the old brass to see if it truly held this anomolous blade in place at the guard or if its tang inserts into the hollowed guard and then filled with brass. Still, I welcome your opinions and need to see more pics of examples of "electric weld" to understand what they look like. Did they use brass for this process? I would think brass has a higher melting point than what they used to weld with??

kronckew · 4th May 2010, 10:28 AM

brazing happens at a lower temp. than welding. the brass filler metal melts at a significantly lower temp than the steel being joined. when used to produce a fillet where two surfaces meet at right angles it can look a bit like a proper weld. if you know someone who welds, he can probably tell by looking at it, the photos are a bit hard to tell. brazing is essentially like soldering where the filler melts and wets the joined metals which may be dissimilar to each other as well as the filler.

the much higher temp of an electric arc weld not only melts the filler but the base metal being joined it requires the filler as well as the two parts to be joined to be similar (ie. all 3 steel) and would seriously affect the heat treatment hardening/temper of a blade. the temp. used to braze while lower is also high enough to affect the temper.

i've not heard of tangs being held into iron grips by melted and poured brass, i suspect if anything they would have used lead. cutlers cement (tar or rosin mixed with brick dust and occasionally a fibrous material) was used for similar purposes at even lower temperatures.

this site has info on arc welding, as well as brazing and other welding/brazing methods.

as everything is covered up by the brass, an xray may be the only way to tell what is underneath. the xray will likely cost more that the item did tho. or you could take it and give it a good whack against a tree & see what it looks like when it breaks loose tho this somewhat detracts from it's appearence until you get it unbent and re-brazed anyway

.

modern electric welders like MIG and TIG types can also braze with a brass based filler, again at lower temp.

Atlantia · 4th May 2010, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I used a commercial product I bought off the net. I can't remember its name, but it does work nicely. The less you leave it on, the lighter the patina. I used it to also darken a copper-wired small sword hilt (original sword, new wrap).

Yes, this piece has always troubled me in a way. Unfortunately, though, there might still be no closure on its exact origin due to its classification. Privateer swords, axes, pikes, etc, were often prinitive affairs and like espada ancha, were sometimes made from spare parts, older blades, etc. This can be seen again and again in naval pieces. If we assume it was a repair, was it one to fix the blade in modern times? Was it an old repair? Was it made this way from the start as a "one off"? Or is it a fake put together to deceive? I regret staining the brass nuw, because perhaps I might have considered chipping away the old brass to see if it truly held this anomolous blade in place at the guard or if its tang inserts into the hollowed guard and then filled with brass. Still, I welcome your opinions and need to see more pics of examples of "electric weld" to understand what they look like. Did they use brass for this process? I would think brass has a higher melting point than what they used to weld with??

Difficult to say what'll remove it best, but I'd try something that's mild and wet, rather than just scraping or using a paste.
I'd say that a wet metal-polishing wadding like 'duraglit' or that cheap version (which is a freaking godsend for lots of aplications) called 'Duzzit metal polish wadding' which is by '151 products ltd'.
That stuff is to mild to really touch steel but will take all kinds of crap off of brass/bronze without abrading it.

M ELEY · 5th May 2010, 07:56 AM

Thanks for all your suggestions, gents. I don't know if I'm up to wacking it against a tree just yet!

I will try to get that product Atlantia mentioned and perhaps I'll use a drummel tool to scrape away the brass. I'll write back if I find out any more. Thanks again...

M ELEY · 11th May 2010, 02:12 PM

Finally removed the stain from the brass at the throat of the blade...and brass it is. A magnet didn't stick to it and it has an older yellowed patina to it. I'm still convinced on holding this one that it is legit. Worked on and repaired, yes, but a modern forgery with slapped-on blade, I don't believe so. IF it is real (

), when would someone have had the technology to simply forge the knuckle guard to the grip without a peined tang? Wouldn't this still be an easy process that could have been done pretty early?

Jim McDougall · 11th May 2010, 06:55 PM

While the examination of construction on this piece truly is interesting, as well as the husbandry observations and tips, what interests me most is trying to figure out more on identifying it.

William Gilkerson ("Boarders Away", R.I. 1991, p. 84) notes, "...there are extant numbers of unmarked M1804 cutlass derivatives awaiting identification by some future scholar, and also various hilt and blades anomalies.

I think that Mark, in his tenacity in pursuing all things maritime, is probably just that figure, as he always finds unusual and often surprisingly linked items that cause us to rethink the set boundaries of the weapons and materials used in this sector of collecting.

The period of the famed M1804 'double disc' hilt cutlasses does seem to have had 'wide berth' as there were many of the familiar names producing them, as well as numbers of lesser known and even entirely unmarked productions.
Obviously during the Napoleonic Wars, there was considerable emphasis on naval power, and Gilkerson notes "...a flurry of activity in cutlass matters" just before the end of these conflicts c.1814 (op.cit. p.85). While there is mention of a defined type by Tatham & Egg, it seems plausible that this 'flurry' may have produced a number of other contenders.

This unusual sheet steel guard is unique in the diamond shaped cutout pierced in the steel, clearly deviating from the double discs. It is worthy of note to refer to the presence of the diamond shape in the vertical pierced guard in the brass hilted, ebony grip sabre Mark also has....obviously in reference this is free association, but tempting to do so. Clearly there is not a naval symbolism here that I have heard of, but perhaps a period geometric fashion of the time.

More unusual is the curiously upturned point blade, a characteristic indeed seen on espada ancha blades of about this period, and not suggesting this may be Spanish, but again, worthy of note.

The ribbed grip seems more in line with the more cylindrical type used later in the M1841 style British cutlasses. After 1815, the British navy was basically somewhat in decline, with ships decommisioned and no more cutlasses were sought. In this time, it stands to reason that the focus on war would have shifted dramatically to trade, and militarily unmarked private purchase cutlasses would still have been sought by merchant shipping.

One potentially likely suggestion that seems likely to be advanced might be the mysterious 'lead cutter' swords, and I would like to address that here as well. In Gilkerson (p.85) he mentions these and thier 'heavy blades', and suggests M1804 disc type guards, citing Flayderman and Annis claiming being puzzled by thier purpose.
First, these are well described in Robson ("Swords of the British Army", London, 1975, pp.176-177, fig. 185) and these are believed to have been for some type of cutting exercise to strengthen wrists perhaps. They were not officially introduced until an order in 1870 (1 Sept. 1870), which appeared along with the method prescribed for casting lead moulds. These had nothing to do with M1804 hilts, nor the confusion which seems to have come into play with cutlasses at times. These are clearly marked 'lead cutter' and are typically included with gymnasia or practice swords.

This then may be excluded with any prospective suggestions of lead cutting swords; may well be one of the hilt and blade anomalies suggested by Gilkerson, or among the 'flurry' of cutlass activity c.1814. It does seem to be a cutlass which shows evidence of the innovative activity of these times toward improving edged weapons, and could be either a prototype, or of a small private contract which may have ended up in merchant use.

All best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 12th May 2010, 04:23 AM

Thanks, Jim, for commenting on this perplexing sword. Most of the time, I can tell when I'm holding out for a positive answer on an item I "want" to be something vs one I truly feel "is" something. The whole feel of this sword, despite its awkward construction, tells me its real. You bring up the point again that this area, like Confederate weapons, espada ancha, Rev War swords, etc, gets alot into the gray zones sometimes. Many naval swords made for merchant ships and privateers were indeed limited productions, with a cutler, smith or sword maker producing limited numbers for a said ship. Likewise, just like the private purchase pikes and axes, they were often made cheap and treated badly. In retrospect, I belive Kronckew is right that the brass is a field repair, but I think one that is contemporary with the whole piece. Likewise, I still think the odd blade went with the hilt, rather similar to many of the blades on Rev War cutlass in Neumann's. Even Gilkerson mentions many thousands of different naval patterns designed by multiple makers between the times of 1801-15 whose records are lost. We just don't know what they even look like.
I had often thought this might have been patterned after the later Brit model m1845, so your mention of the similarities rings true. I agree that it might be of this later period possibly. This is a little later than my favorite area of collecting (Age of Fighting Sail), but still an interesting naval piece. I had always wondered about the lead-cutters and whether they were for cutlass drill or just exercise. Thanks all for responding on this anomaly.

Jim McDougall · 12th May 2010, 01:28 PM

Hi Mark,
I remember that exact feeling well, and my early passions for collecting edged weapons were driven by boundless optimism in hoping to connect my finds to famous periods, events and exciting literature. Actually, in some senses I miss that, but eventually found that there was far more adventure in finding true perspective, and that there was much deeper history yet to be discovered.

The 'gray zones' you have noted with the Civil War weapons and Revolutionary War weapons among collectors are typically the result of either extremely creative opportunists, whether crafty dealers or ambitious private sellers, and above all, the lack of thorough understanding in the nuances in these weapons. Efforts to advance knowledge and add to the standing resources available should add to the ever growing knowledge that will hopefully preserve the history associated with these weapons. It turn this will enable future scholars and collectors to navigate through the ever present sea of chaff that plagues these fields of study.

I think the most important thing to remember in examining weapons of these periods is that they were intended for use in life or death situations rather than to present a certain appearance. If the style or construction was not likely to withstand combat, it may be presumed that the weapon may not hold the degree of integrity hoped for. Also, as eventually the dependance on firearms or variance in strategy rendered use of certain weapons into lesser inevitable position, that degree might also be considered in evaluation.

One of the most intriguing things I see in this cutlass is the extremely unusual upturned point on the blade. I have seen something similar in an illustration of a nimcha if I recall correctly, and it was a line drawing in a French article on weapons fabrication....time for another excavation here in the bookmobile !

I am wondering if, in these times of considerable experimentation in edged weapon technology as noted, that perhaps exposure in the Meditteranean to the dreaded, and much romanticized 'Barbary Pirates' might have lent to consideration of this somewhat radically designed blade.

As always, a fascinating weapon Mark, and more high seas adventure. The age of fighting sail may have ended in certain degree, but high seas adventure still lives.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 13th May 2010, 08:25 AM

Yes, Jim, you do have a point that the structure of the weapon has to be practical to be the real thing. The blade on this one is unusual, but I still think it was a functional one. It carries quite a bit of weight and the blade is sharpened toward the point and more blunt near the hilt. The curve on this cutlass is extreme, but not much different than that found on the m1812. You mention the influence of the Barbary Corsairs on swords- excellent point! I could see this as one following this trend. Officer's swords of this period were indeed affected, with curving blades and mameluke hilts.

Jim McDougall · 17th May 2010, 12:21 AM

Hi Mark,
Excavation success!!! I found the article, an obscure reference from a French magazine in 1976 concerning blade types and sections......it is obviously a 'nimcha', well known in French context of course with thier colonial activity in these regions.
This curious 'uptick' on blades seems to be a subtle characteristic on the colonial blades of espada anchas of the early 19th century, and it is worthy of note that there seems to have been considerable association between some Spanish colonial swords and examples of colonial Maghreb weapons.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 17th May 2010, 04:47 AM

Wow, Jim! Amazing that you found this reference that you mentioned. I do hope you didn't lose sleep searching the archives...and deep they must be! After that, I'm imagining you opening the door to the 'book mobile' and tons of papers crashing out. Do be careful-

I do see what you are talking about concerning this sword and I know mine does have quite a bend in its tip section, but I have seen several in Neumann's that are similar. No doubt the Barbary pirates might have had a huge influence on its blade, though, as it is undoubtedly a 19th c. product. One only has to look at the marine mameluke swords to see the attraction. Fascinating that the Spanish were particularly affected. I could see this as a Spanish knock-off of a Brit m1803, with the above said influence.

I will continue to do research on Spanish naval items of this time period. Very sketchy area indeed, after trying to find a single pic of early Span boarding pikes, all I can come up with are references to later 19th c. double headed diamond-shaped patterns. I'm assuming earlier patterns mimiced Euro patterns or were similar to their trench spears.

After reviewing 'Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America' , I found a naval cutlass similar to a Brit pattern m1845, so I'm assuming you might be onto something here, Jim!

M ELEY · 16th June 2010, 10:38 PM

Just can't leave this one alone. I am more and more convinced that it might be older than discussed, perhaps 1810-20. Take a look at this site, example #2 for simolarities...

http://navalswd.com/catalog.php?action=Cutlasses

Later cutlasses had hilts that were more shaped to the hand, versus the plain wrapped sheet iron grips of the earlier pieces. Ribbing started with the m1803 and seems to have continued up to the m1845 Brit pattern. I will post pics of my newest acquisition (

) soon. Another cutlass with VR markings, but definately early Victorian, ca. 1840.

M ELEY · 4th October 2011, 12:02 PM

Well, after many months of debating, I finally took this one to a welding shop to have those more knowledgible look at the braize. It was agreed by all that it was a modern repair. After these folks tried to melt away the brass unsuccessfully with acetyline (turning the surrounding metal a cherry red and burning some of the old paint off), we decided on a differnet route. I had the braize ground smooth to see if my hunch was correct. Happily, it was. This old cutlass was constructed with the tang inserted into the hilt and somehow secured. The modern braise was done to repair a hair-line crack approx 1/8" from where the tang enters the disc guard. After it was shaved down, it looked much better, with the crack just barely visible and the blade still intact. To date, I have only seen one other sword made in a similar way in Neumann's book. Still, among naval collectors, there is no denying that private purchase swords had many, many different forms.

Jim McDougall · 4th October 2011, 07:22 PM

Mark, you are truly a tenacious old sea dog!!! aaarrrrrhhh!

Thank you for reviving this thread, as well as sharing new developments which you thankfully stay after. This is fascinating to learn a little more on the construction of these things. New repairs just reflect at least honest care in preserving these old warriors. As always lots of stories with em, and the modern activity just one more. Well done Captain!!!

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 5th October 2011, 08:22 AM

Hello Cap'n Jim. Good to hear from ya!
Yes, ever since Gilkerson had that pic of the oddly constructed "basket-hilt" m1803, I've been fascinated with the private purchase types. I remember when I got this one, the same seller had a "lead-cutter" with the same modern-type braizing to the base of the blade near the hilt. I was worried that the blades weren't original to the hilt, but went for it after all. Maybe the owner just didn't like the looseness in the blades( a common enough occurance). Glad got her even if she's not a pretty specimen. Thanks for commenting, my friend.

27th April 2010, 02:41 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Oddly constructed cutlass Sorry to visit old ghosts, but after my success with that old Dutch sword, I'd thought I'd give this old one a try as well. It truly appears to be an original piece, meaning, I don't think it's a theatrical or blacksmith piece made for fun. The blade, I think, is older and possibly one of those old Rev War imported (poorer quality) blades. Note the steep swoop on the end & many of this type in Neumann's. My quandry is the construction. It appears the blade tang was inserted in a corrigated/ribbed iron hollow grip, brass was poured into the space and the sheet guard was folded over the other end and brazed into place. You can see the darkened brass where the blade intersects the guard/hilt. I have seen one other sword like this that was very similar to the m1803 Brit cutlass, with brass securing the blade near the guard. So, is this just a "one off', made in limited supply, or has anyone else seen a sword with similar construction? There is a very primitive cutlass in Neumanns that has it's hilt tightened with poured lead, creating primitive langets for it, but that one still has the tang passing through the end of the hilt and piened, so not exactly the same thing. Anyway, opinions? Attached Images

17th May 2010, 12:21 AM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Hi Mark, Excavation success!!! I found the article, an obscure reference from a French magazine in 1976 concerning blade types and sections......it is obviously a 'nimcha', well known in French context of course with thier colonial activity in these regions. This curious 'uptick' on blades seems to be a subtle characteristic on the colonial blades of espada anchas of the early 19th century, and it is worthy of note that there seems to have been considerable association between some Spanish colonial swords and examples of colonial Maghreb weapons. All the best, Jim Attached Images

16th June 2010, 10:38 PM	#17
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Beating a dead horse- Just can't leave this one alone. I am more and more convinced that it might be older than discussed, perhaps 1810-20. Take a look at this site, example #2 for simolarities... http://navalswd.com/catalog.php?action=Cutlasses Later cutlasses had hilts that were more shaped to the hand, versus the plain wrapped sheet iron grips of the earlier pieces. Ribbing started with the m1803 and seems to have continued up to the m1845 Brit pattern. I will post pics of my newest acquisition ( ) soon. Another cutlass with VR markings, but definately early Victorian, ca. 1840.

2nd May 2010, 10:32 PM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Are you sure it is brass indeed? Try to put a small magnet over it, or to make a small fine scratch in order to see the natural metal tone. From here via the photo it sure looks like filled electric weld.

3rd May 2010, 01:51 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	I have a confession to make and I'm not proud of it ( ), but the reason I know its brass is because I used a chemical to pickle its color black to match the rest of the sword. The brass was old and yellowed with age when I got it, but contrasted so smartly with the rest of the dark sword and looked like a wad of gum holding the blade in place, so...I altered it to look more appealing. No trickery on my part, just wanted to have a less ugly appearance. So the surface of the brass now looks "off". Unfortunately, I don't know what to do about returning it to its former state. I'm afraid I'll wash away the patina and then it really will look like a "put-together" sword, which I truly don't believe it is. Does anyone have a suggestion of what I might do to remove the pickling to the brass??

3rd May 2010, 01:53 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	photos look like it was arc welded, broken at the hilt & 'fixed'? the blade does not look right with that hilt to me. edited: if it is brass as you posted later it could still be a repair...

4th May 2010, 12:31 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	I used a commercial product I bought off the net. I can't remember its name, but it does work nicely. The less you leave it on, the lighter the patina. I used it to also darken a copper-wired small sword hilt (original sword, new wrap). Yes, this piece has always troubled me in a way. Unfortunately, though, there might still be no closure on its exact origin due to its classification. Privateer swords, axes, pikes, etc, were often prinitive affairs and like espada ancha, were sometimes made from spare parts, older blades, etc. This can be seen again and again in naval pieces. If we assume it was a repair, was it one to fix the blade in modern times? Was it an old repair? Was it made this way from the start as a "one off"? Or is it a fake put together to deceive? I regret staining the brass nuw, because perhaps I might have considered chipping away the old brass to see if it truly held this anomolous blade in place at the guard or if its tang inserts into the hollowed guard and then filled with brass. Still, I welcome your opinions and need to see more pics of examples of "electric weld" to understand what they look like. Did they use brass for this process? I would think brass has a higher melting point than what they used to weld with??

4th May 2010, 10:28 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	brazing happens at a lower temp. than welding. the brass filler metal melts at a significantly lower temp than the steel being joined. when used to produce a fillet where two surfaces meet at right angles it can look a bit like a proper weld. if you know someone who welds, he can probably tell by looking at it, the photos are a bit hard to tell. brazing is essentially like soldering where the filler melts and wets the joined metals which may be dissimilar to each other as well as the filler. the much higher temp of an electric arc weld not only melts the filler but the base metal being joined it requires the filler as well as the two parts to be joined to be similar (ie. all 3 steel) and would seriously affect the heat treatment hardening/temper of a blade. the temp. used to braze while lower is also high enough to affect the temper. i've not heard of tangs being held into iron grips by melted and poured brass, i suspect if anything they would have used lead. cutlers cement (tar or rosin mixed with brick dust and occasionally a fibrous material) was used for similar purposes at even lower temperatures. this site has info on arc welding, as well as brazing and other welding/brazing methods. as everything is covered up by the brass, an xray may be the only way to tell what is underneath. the xray will likely cost more that the item did tho. or you could take it and give it a good whack against a tree & see what it looks like when it breaks loose tho this somewhat detracts from it's appearence until you get it unbent and re-brazed anyway . modern electric welders like MIG and TIG types can also braze with a brass based filler, again at lower temp.

5th May 2010, 07:56 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Thanks for all your suggestions, gents. I don't know if I'm up to wacking it against a tree just yet! I will try to get that product Atlantia mentioned and perhaps I'll use a drummel tool to scrape away the brass. I'll write back if I find out any more. Thanks again...

11th May 2010, 02:12 PM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Finally removed the stain from the brass at the throat of the blade...and brass it is. A magnet didn't stick to it and it has an older yellowed patina to it. I'm still convinced on holding this one that it is legit. Worked on and repaired, yes, but a modern forgery with slapped-on blade, I don't believe so. IF it is real ( ), when would someone have had the technology to simply forge the knuckle guard to the grip without a peined tang? Wouldn't this still be an easy process that could have been done pretty early?

11th May 2010, 06:55 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	While the examination of construction on this piece truly is interesting, as well as the husbandry observations and tips, what interests me most is trying to figure out more on identifying it. William Gilkerson ("Boarders Away", R.I. 1991, p. 84) notes, "...there are extant numbers of unmarked M1804 cutlass derivatives awaiting identification by some future scholar, and also various hilt and blades anomalies. I think that Mark, in his tenacity in pursuing all things maritime, is probably just that figure, as he always finds unusual and often surprisingly linked items that cause us to rethink the set boundaries of the weapons and materials used in this sector of collecting. The period of the famed M1804 'double disc' hilt cutlasses does seem to have had 'wide berth' as there were many of the familiar names producing them, as well as numbers of lesser known and even entirely unmarked productions. Obviously during the Napoleonic Wars, there was considerable emphasis on naval power, and Gilkerson notes "...a flurry of activity in cutlass matters" just before the end of these conflicts c.1814 (op.cit. p.85). While there is mention of a defined type by Tatham & Egg, it seems plausible that this 'flurry' may have produced a number of other contenders. This unusual sheet steel guard is unique in the diamond shaped cutout pierced in the steel, clearly deviating from the double discs. It is worthy of note to refer to the presence of the diamond shape in the vertical pierced guard in the brass hilted, ebony grip sabre Mark also has....obviously in reference this is free association, but tempting to do so. Clearly there is not a naval symbolism here that I have heard of, but perhaps a period geometric fashion of the time. More unusual is the curiously upturned point blade, a characteristic indeed seen on espada ancha blades of about this period, and not suggesting this may be Spanish, but again, worthy of note. The ribbed grip seems more in line with the more cylindrical type used later in the M1841 style British cutlasses. After 1815, the British navy was basically somewhat in decline, with ships decommisioned and no more cutlasses were sought. In this time, it stands to reason that the focus on war would have shifted dramatically to trade, and militarily unmarked private purchase cutlasses would still have been sought by merchant shipping. One potentially likely suggestion that seems likely to be advanced might be the mysterious 'lead cutter' swords, and I would like to address that here as well. In Gilkerson (p.85) he mentions these and thier 'heavy blades', and suggests M1804 disc type guards, citing Flayderman and Annis claiming being puzzled by thier purpose. First, these are well described in Robson ("Swords of the British Army", London, 1975, pp.176-177, fig. 185) and these are believed to have been for some type of cutting exercise to strengthen wrists perhaps. They were not officially introduced until an order in 1870 (1 Sept. 1870), which appeared along with the method prescribed for casting lead moulds. These had nothing to do with M1804 hilts, nor the confusion which seems to have come into play with cutlasses at times. These are clearly marked 'lead cutter' and are typically included with gymnasia or practice swords. This then may be excluded with any prospective suggestions of lead cutting swords; may well be one of the hilt and blade anomalies suggested by Gilkerson, or among the 'flurry' of cutlass activity c.1814. It does seem to be a cutlass which shows evidence of the innovative activity of these times toward improving edged weapons, and could be either a prototype, or of a small private contract which may have ended up in merchant use. All best regards, Jim

12th May 2010, 04:23 AM	#12
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Thanks, Jim, for commenting on this perplexing sword. Most of the time, I can tell when I'm holding out for a positive answer on an item I "want" to be something vs one I truly feel "is" something. The whole feel of this sword, despite its awkward construction, tells me its real. You bring up the point again that this area, like Confederate weapons, espada ancha, Rev War swords, etc, gets alot into the gray zones sometimes. Many naval swords made for merchant ships and privateers were indeed limited productions, with a cutler, smith or sword maker producing limited numbers for a said ship. Likewise, just like the private purchase pikes and axes, they were often made cheap and treated badly. In retrospect, I belive Kronckew is right that the brass is a field repair, but I think one that is contemporary with the whole piece. Likewise, I still think the odd blade went with the hilt, rather similar to many of the blades on Rev War cutlass in Neumann's. Even Gilkerson mentions many thousands of different naval patterns designed by multiple makers between the times of 1801-15 whose records are lost. We just don't know what they even look like. I had often thought this might have been patterned after the later Brit model m1845, so your mention of the similarities rings true. I agree that it might be of this later period possibly. This is a little later than my favorite area of collecting (Age of Fighting Sail), but still an interesting naval piece. I had always wondered about the lead-cutters and whether they were for cutlass drill or just exercise. Thanks all for responding on this anomaly.

12th May 2010, 01:28 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Hi Mark, I remember that exact feeling well, and my early passions for collecting edged weapons were driven by boundless optimism in hoping to connect my finds to famous periods, events and exciting literature. Actually, in some senses I miss that, but eventually found that there was far more adventure in finding true perspective, and that there was much deeper history yet to be discovered. The 'gray zones' you have noted with the Civil War weapons and Revolutionary War weapons among collectors are typically the result of either extremely creative opportunists, whether crafty dealers or ambitious private sellers, and above all, the lack of thorough understanding in the nuances in these weapons. Efforts to advance knowledge and add to the standing resources available should add to the ever growing knowledge that will hopefully preserve the history associated with these weapons. It turn this will enable future scholars and collectors to navigate through the ever present sea of chaff that plagues these fields of study. I think the most important thing to remember in examining weapons of these periods is that they were intended for use in life or death situations rather than to present a certain appearance. If the style or construction was not likely to withstand combat, it may be presumed that the weapon may not hold the degree of integrity hoped for. Also, as eventually the dependance on firearms or variance in strategy rendered use of certain weapons into lesser inevitable position, that degree might also be considered in evaluation. One of the most intriguing things I see in this cutlass is the extremely unusual upturned point on the blade. I have seen something similar in an illustration of a nimcha if I recall correctly, and it was a line drawing in a French article on weapons fabrication....time for another excavation here in the bookmobile ! I am wondering if, in these times of considerable experimentation in edged weapon technology as noted, that perhaps exposure in the Meditteranean to the dreaded, and much romanticized 'Barbary Pirates' might have lent to consideration of this somewhat radically designed blade. As always, a fascinating weapon Mark, and more high seas adventure. The age of fighting sail may have ended in certain degree, but high seas adventure still lives. All the best, Jim

13th May 2010, 08:25 AM	#14
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Yes, Jim, you do have a point that the structure of the weapon has to be practical to be the real thing. The blade on this one is unusual, but I still think it was a functional one. It carries quite a bit of weight and the blade is sharpened toward the point and more blunt near the hilt. The curve on this cutlass is extreme, but not much different than that found on the m1812. You mention the influence of the Barbary Corsairs on swords- excellent point! I could see this as one following this trend. Officer's swords of this period were indeed affected, with curving blades and mameluke hilts.

17th May 2010, 04:47 AM	#16
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Wow, Jim! Amazing that you found this reference that you mentioned. I do hope you didn't lose sleep searching the archives...and deep they must be! After that, I'm imagining you opening the door to the 'book mobile' and tons of papers crashing out. Do be careful- I do see what you are talking about concerning this sword and I know mine does have quite a bend in its tip section, but I have seen several in Neumann's that are similar. No doubt the Barbary pirates might have had a huge influence on its blade, though, as it is undoubtedly a 19th c. product. One only has to look at the marine mameluke swords to see the attraction. Fascinating that the Spanish were particularly affected. I could see this as a Spanish knock-off of a Brit m1803, with the above said influence. I will continue to do research on Spanish naval items of this time period. Very sketchy area indeed, after trying to find a single pic of early Span boarding pikes, all I can come up with are references to later 19th c. double headed diamond-shaped patterns. I'm assuming earlier patterns mimiced Euro patterns or were similar to their trench spears. After reviewing 'Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America' , I found a naval cutlass similar to a Brit pattern m1845, so I'm assuming you might be onto something here, Jim!

4th October 2011, 12:02 PM	#18
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Well, after many months of debating, I finally took this one to a welding shop to have those more knowledgible look at the braize. It was agreed by all that it was a modern repair. After these folks tried to melt away the brass unsuccessfully with acetyline (turning the surrounding metal a cherry red and burning some of the old paint off), we decided on a differnet route. I had the braize ground smooth to see if my hunch was correct. Happily, it was. This old cutlass was constructed with the tang inserted into the hilt and somehow secured. The modern braise was done to repair a hair-line crack approx 1/8" from where the tang enters the disc guard. After it was shaved down, it looked much better, with the crack just barely visible and the blade still intact. To date, I have only seen one other sword made in a similar way in Neumann's book. Still, among naval collectors, there is no denying that private purchase swords had many, many different forms.

4th October 2011, 07:22 PM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Mark, you are truly a tenacious old sea dog!!! aaarrrrrhhh! Thank you for reviving this thread, as well as sharing new developments which you thankfully stay after. This is fascinating to learn a little more on the construction of these things. New repairs just reflect at least honest care in preserving these old warriors. As always lots of stories with em, and the modern activity just one more. Well done Captain!!! All the best, Jim

5th October 2011, 08:22 AM	#20
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Hello Cap'n Jim. Good to hear from ya! Yes, ever since Gilkerson had that pic of the oddly constructed "basket-hilt" m1803, I've been fascinated with the private purchase types. I remember when I got this one, the same seller had a "lead-cutter" with the same modern-type braizing to the base of the blade near the hilt. I was worried that the blades weren't original to the hilt, but went for it after all. Maybe the owner just didn't like the looseness in the blades( a common enough occurance). Glad got her even if she's not a pretty specimen. Thanks for commenting, my friend.