16th Century German Staghorn Powderflasks

rickystl · 30th September 2011, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Michael. Will do. I'll take it apart this week and report back. Yes, it should be very interesting. Rick.

I just LOST the text to my message. I'll report back later. Meantime, here are some pics. Rick.

Matchlock · 6th October 2011, 06:53 PM

Hi Rick,

The outcome rexactly responded to what I expected, even the horizontally acting oblong cut-off plate is still there - great original condition for 1570!

The black lacquer on the iron parts is hundreds of years old arsenal care; I would plead to preserve it all exactly the way it came down to you.

What I cannot see: Just put your finger into the flask to check whether there are remains of powder on the inner sides!

And: could you identify the remainder of the broken-off threaded pin on the inner side of the belt hook?

Best,
and congrats again,
Michael

rickystl · 7th October 2011, 03:58 PM

Hi Michael!! Glad you were able to see the photos of the flask dis-assembled. Some how when I posted this last set of photos I accidently deleted my text. Have no idea how I did it?
The flask has been re-assembled now. I even ran a pipe cleaner through it but could not find any powder. Darn

However, there was a slight staining inside that did show evidence that powder was once there.
The tiny threaded piece that helped to secure the belt hook: There are actually two threaded pieces, one directly on top of the other, corresponding exactly with the two holes on the outside. A camera could not pick this up.
Both of the broken threaded pieces are old. Under magnafication I could just barely make out where the first pin was ground off (a long time ago) on the belt hook itself and another threaded piece was added (a long time ago) and subsequently broke again.
But, all the pieces are there and working!! It's great that both the measuring and shut off springs are not broke.
Earlier in my Post I mentioned that I was thinking of repairing the tiny pin - yet a third time in it's history. But, this would require drilling out one of the old threaded pieces and "soldering" a new piece on.

That would be altering the piece to far. Therefore, I will keep it in it's current condition on display in my collection. Rick.

Matchlock · 7th October 2011, 07:07 PM

Hi Rick,
Well done!

I attach a similar but somewhat earlier staghorn flask sold at auction by Stockholm's Auktionsverket im May this year. It is a bit variant in the style of both mounts and engraving and clearly represents the Far Northern taste. THe soldier depicted is engraved all'antica, in the antique Greek or Roman manner with his malchus sword and shield.
On the basis of the spout lid the spring of which is hammered out of the same piece of iron as the lid and just bent back, instead of made separately and then riveted to the grip, as in most of these flasks, I would date it to the 1540's.

Rick, when you authored this thread nobody could imagine what is was to be about. Would you consent if I asked Fernando to change its present title to '16th Century German Staghorn Powderflasks'? I would add more stuff then.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 7th October 2011, 07:44 PM

Hi 'Nando,

Thanks for fulfilling my request so fast!

Best,
Michael

rickystl · 7th October 2011, 09:31 PM

Hi Michael!! Thanks for your reply and thanks for posting yet another wonderful looking flask!! Yes, I see the difference in the design of the valve spring. No problem changing the Title of this Post. Sounds better. Thanks for allowing this 'Nando.
At first, I was somewhat hesitant to dis-assemble the flask. But, inquiring minds wanted to know.

By the way........are you not happy that I dis-assembled MY flask instead of one of YOURS?

LOL
I wonder how long this paticular style of flask remained in vogue in Germany? Would you say about 1530-1600? I know staghorn flask were popular in Europe through the 1800's. But the similarities of these early examples here is interesting. There are probably no surviving examples with the same engraved design. Do you have a guess as to what/who the figure on my flask is supposed to represent? Thanks again for all your help. Rick.

Matchlock · 7th October 2011, 11:04 PM

Hi Rick,

Believe me, I disassembled all my flasks and guns!!!

How else could I have known what to expect to find in yours?

Apart from the diverging engravings on Northern, Swiss and French staghorn flasks, most of the motifs on South German (Bavarian/Nuremberg) flasks are based on period artwork engravings by Renaissance masters as Virgil Solis and Jost Amman. They usually depicture a man and/or a woman in 1550's-60's costume, framed by Nuremberg foliate work or just decorated with that Nuremberg foliage without any figures.

In South Germany, dated examples are known from 1531/2 to 1572, so I would say that that form became obsolete in Germany by the 1580's. Swiss and French flasks, as well as Hungarian ones, are completely differrent and may habe been made as late as the 17th and 18th c. (the latter). Not to gorget forget all those 19th c. remakes and modern forgeries!

Best,
Michael

7th October 2011, 07:07 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Rick, Well done! I attach a similar but somewhat earlier staghorn flask sold at auction by Stockholm's Auktionsverket im May this year. It is a bit variant in the style of both mounts and engraving and clearly represents the Far Northern taste. THe soldier depicted is engraved all'antica, in the antique Greek or Roman manner with his malchus sword and shield. On the basis of the spout lid the spring of which is hammered out of the same piece of iron as the lid and just bent back, instead of made separately and then riveted to the grip, as in most of these flasks, I would date it to the 1540's. Rick, when you authored this thread nobody could imagine what is was to be about. Would you consent if I asked Fernando to change its present title to '16th Century German Staghorn Powderflasks'? I would add more stuff then. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 7th October 2011 at 07:42 PM.

6th October 2011, 06:53 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Rick, The outcome rexactly responded to what I expected, even the horizontally acting oblong cut-off plate is still there - great original condition for 1570! The black lacquer on the iron parts is hundreds of years old arsenal care; I would plead to preserve it all exactly the way it came down to you. What I cannot see: Just put your finger into the flask to check whether there are remains of powder on the inner sides! And: could you identify the remainder of the broken-off threaded pin on the inner side of the belt hook? Best, and congrats again, Michael

7th October 2011, 03:58 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hi Michael!! Glad you were able to see the photos of the flask dis-assembled. Some how when I posted this last set of photos I accidently deleted my text. Have no idea how I did it? The flask has been re-assembled now. I even ran a pipe cleaner through it but could not find any powder. Darn However, there was a slight staining inside that did show evidence that powder was once there. The tiny threaded piece that helped to secure the belt hook: There are actually two threaded pieces, one directly on top of the other, corresponding exactly with the two holes on the outside. A camera could not pick this up. Both of the broken threaded pieces are old. Under magnafication I could just barely make out where the first pin was ground off (a long time ago) on the belt hook itself and another threaded piece was added (a long time ago) and subsequently broke again. But, all the pieces are there and working!! It's great that both the measuring and shut off springs are not broke. Earlier in my Post I mentioned that I was thinking of repairing the tiny pin - yet a third time in it's history. But, this would require drilling out one of the old threaded pieces and "soldering" a new piece on. That would be altering the piece to far. Therefore, I will keep it in it's current condition on display in my collection. Rick.

7th October 2011, 07:44 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, Thanks for fulfilling my request so fast! Best, Michael

7th October 2011, 09:31 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hi Michael!! Thanks for your reply and thanks for posting yet another wonderful looking flask!! Yes, I see the difference in the design of the valve spring. No problem changing the Title of this Post. Sounds better. Thanks for allowing this 'Nando. At first, I was somewhat hesitant to dis-assemble the flask. But, inquiring minds wanted to know. By the way........are you not happy that I dis-assembled MY flask instead of one of YOURS? LOL I wonder how long this paticular style of flask remained in vogue in Germany? Would you say about 1530-1600? I know staghorn flask were popular in Europe through the 1800's. But the similarities of these early examples here is interesting. There are probably no surviving examples with the same engraved design. Do you have a guess as to what/who the figure on my flask is supposed to represent? Thanks again for all your help. Rick.

7th October 2011, 11:04 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Rick, Believe me, I disassembled all my flasks and guns!!! How else could I have known what to expect to find in yours? Apart from the diverging engravings on Northern, Swiss and French staghorn flasks, most of the motifs on South German (Bavarian/Nuremberg) flasks are based on period artwork engravings by Renaissance masters as Virgil Solis and Jost Amman. They usually depicture a man and/or a woman in 1550's-60's costume, framed by Nuremberg foliate work or just decorated with that Nuremberg foliage without any figures. In South Germany, dated examples are known from 1531/2 to 1572, so I would say that that form became obsolete in Germany by the 1580's. Swiss and French flasks, as well as Hungarian ones, are completely differrent and may habe been made as late as the 17th and 18th c. (the latter). Not to gorget forget all those 19th c. remakes and modern forgeries! Best, Michael