Evidence for fake Moro Kris / Keris Sundang?

VANDOO · 28th July 2005, 03:40 AM

THE ART OF PRODUCING FAKE OBJECTS GOES WAY BACK AND PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING OF HIGH VALUE OR DEMAND HAS BEEN FAKED OR WILL BE. FORTUNATELY MOST PEOPLE WHO DO THE FAKEING EITHER CUT CORNERS AND DO A POOR JOB OF REPRODUCING THE OBJECT OR JUST GET SOMETHING AND MISREPRESENT IT AS RARE AND VALUEABLE. THEY USUALLY ARE LOOKING FOR A EASY SCORE AND DON'T WANT TO PUT TOO MUCH WORK OR MONEY INTO THE SCAM. BUYING SOMETHING BASED ONLY ON A POOR PICTURE AND DESCRIPTION, THEN SENDING THE MONEY FIRST TO A STRANGER IN ANOTHER PART OF THE COUNTRY OR WORLD PUTS THE BUYER AT A TREMENDOUS DISADVANTAGE. IT IS SURPRIZING THAT EBAY USUALLY WORKS AS WELL AS IT DOES, BUT YOU CAN BE SURE THE PEOPLE LOOKING FOR A EASY BUCK WILL BE CHECKING OUT NEW WAYS TO WORK THEIR SCAMS AND IF SUCESSFUL WILL BECOME MORE NUMEROUS IN FUTURE. THE GOOD THING IS THERE ARE MANY DEALERS ON EBAY WHO ARE FAIR AND HONEST SO IF YOU KNOW THEM OR SOMEONE WHO HAS DONE BUSINESS WITH THEM IT IS USUALLY OK, BUT AS IN LIFE BEWARE OF STRANGERS!

THERE ARE STILL WEAPONS BEING MADE IN SEVERAL AREAS OF THE WORLD, FOR SOUVINEERS, COLLECTORS, MARTIAL ARTS AND USE. THEY RANGE FROM JUNK TO AS GOOD AS THERE EVER WAS, A VERY GOOD CRAFSTMAN USUALLY IS PROUD OF HIS WORK AND WILL NOT SELL IT FOR SOMETHING ITS NOT BUT WILL CHARGE A GOOD PRICE. SUPERIOR RECENT WORK IS OFTEN MORE EXPENSIVE THAN A ANTIQUE BUT AS IN THE PAST IT IS ALWAYS EXPENSIVE TO BUY A MASTERPIECE FROM THE MASTER.

Federico · 28th July 2005, 05:16 AM

Most common method of faking that is popping up right now in Moro kris, are old blades new fittings. Usually missing the asang-asang, lots of dirt on the hilts, black blade, etc... Essentially the blade tends to have that buried look, and fittings tend to also be very very dirty. These can be hard to identify, especially when done right, there is enough old parts to make wishful collectors turn a blind eye. There are however a couple tells that pop up. A. the seller story These are most commonly sold by antique dealers in PI, and the story is invariably the same, and generally the sword's origins are extravagent eg. its a datu piece or its X years old etc... In many cases where the blade is old, but the fittings are of nicer quality, this can be real hard to tell particularly when held in the hand. B. the frequency that X datu piece of the exact same style just seems to pop up in numerous locations in large numbers. With a little common sense, what is the odds of 5 of the exact same style, design, local, story kris ending up in the same shop, particularly if they are old family heirlooms of considerable age. Even the best reputable dealers, rarely get two swords in stock that are the same style, numerous pieces that look exactly the same, and all happen to be in the same shop, well.... C. modern parts/construction methods, like modern epoxies, solid fittings, etc... Can be hard to see under all the dirt, but once cleaned will be visible

The next most common fakes that get pushed in antiques markets are new swords, pawned off as old. These often get the tourist label stamped on them here on the forums, but in certain well many cases this is not warranted. These are the most common on Ebay and other such places, and usually have vague references to age. A few sellers are honest about them, and the quality of the blades/fittings can be quite high. I have not sold my newer pieces, partly because the okir work is so wonderfully done, they make great study pieces for okir. Just dont buy the stories that they are old. With these pieces, the whole fake aspect comes in the story of the seller, and not necessarily that the piece was made with the intention of being passed off as a fake.

As for swapping old parts, changing blades, etc... Well it happens, and many times it is no indication of fake or not. Repairs get done. Sometimes gangyas/blades get damaged, and repaired. When done right, most here cannot detect a period repair, and even then there is alot of controversy. Anyways, cant comment much further until the other thread opens up.

kai · 29th July 2005, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico

Most common method of faking that is popping up right now in Moro kris, are old blades new fittings. Usually missing the asang-asang, lots of dirt on the hilts, black blade, etc... Essentially the blade tends to have that buried look, and fittings tend to also be very very dirty. These can be hard to identify, especially when done right, there is enough old parts to make wishful collectors turn a blind eye. There are however a couple tells that pop up. A. the seller story These are most commonly sold by antique dealers in PI, and the story is invariably the same, and generally the sword's origins are extravagent eg. its a datu piece or its X years old etc... In many cases where the blade is old, but the fittings are of nicer quality, this can be real hard to tell particularly when held in the hand. B. the frequency that X datu piece of the exact same style just seems to pop up in numerous locations in large numbers. With a little common sense, what is the odds of 5 of the exact same style, design, local, story kris ending up in the same shop, particularly if they are old family heirlooms of considerable age. Even the best reputable dealers, rarely get two swords in stock that are the same style, numerous pieces that look exactly the same, and all happen to be in the same shop, well.... C. modern parts/construction methods, like modern epoxies, solid fittings, etc... Can be hard to see under all the dirt, but once cleaned will be visible

Thanks, Federico!

Quote:

The next most common fakes that get pushed in antiques markets are new swords, pawned off as old. These often get the tourist label stamped on them here on the forums, but in certain well many cases this is not warranted.

The real tourist pieces seem invariably come with those shortcuts mentioned - they just don't look right...

Quote:

These are the most common on Ebay and other such places, and usually have vague references to age. A few sellers are honest about them, and the quality of the blades/fittings can be quite high. I have not sold my newer pieces, partly because the okir work is so wonderfully done, they make great study pieces for okir. Just dont buy the stories that they are old. With these pieces, the whole fake aspect comes in the story of the seller, and not necessarily that the piece was made with the intention of being passed off as a fake.

Yup, especially the newer gunongs often come with elaborate fittings & okir. However, newer kris always seem to come with integral gangya or are there new examples with separate ones?

Regards,
Kai

Federico · 29th July 2005, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

However, newer kris always seem to come with integral gangya or are there new examples with separate ones?

Regards,
Kai

I personally havent seen a newly "Moro" made kris with a separate gangya since the demarkation line of circa 1930s. By that point in time even collectors back then started noticing the trend, as can be evidenced in period writing regarding these weapons (Im thinking its either in Stones or Hutchings where the author makes the comment that lately the gangyas have not been separate but then its been a while since Ive done much reading on the subject). Now, the caveat of I have not seen recently made "Moro" kris with separate gangyas is that newly made Indo/Malay kris sundang do have separate gangyas still, and in the context of faking, if an unscrupulous seller decided to call it Moro in an attempt to pass it off as older, then there is that possibility. As for how to tell newly made or even old Indo/Malay kris sundang vs Moro kris, well that is a topic that we've debated often here to no clear agreement.

Bill · 29th July 2005, 04:46 PM

Haven't seen any blades that appear to be fakes, but as noted, there is a lot that have added fittings to increase the value. There has always been a lot of discussion on this forum on restoration v preservation. I think that when one has a exceptional piece, but in poor condition, it is better to preserve. If it is a 1900 kris missing its baca-baca & the hilt is missing the wrap, I see no reason not to restore it, as its original owners would, as long as it is done in the same manner that it was made. When the piece is upgraded, only to increase its value, I think the piece is ruined. I think many of us are likely to own Datu pieces without realizing it. There were many Datu, & for the most part thier swords were most likely very simular to the people they governed. I think a Datu could be compared to 1st level management in todays corporate world. They usually had little input to policy but were required to follow commands given to them; & still having to look out for the interest & demands of the people they led. When times were good, they prospered & could afford to commision an exceptional sword; but I think that would be less common then we imagine.

Rick · 29th July 2005, 05:12 PM

When will the first Chinese copy show up ?

Or could it be that a good Moro kris is too labor intensive to produce cheaply ?

I believe that Indo-Malay sundang are currently being made in Madura but these seem to make no pretensions of being Moro and they are always acid etched .

Battara · 30th July 2005, 12:57 PM

Well (being a deep subject and all

) there are some companies that have been making copies of Moro kris for a few years, ie. Kris Cutlery, Museum Replicas, India, etc. These companies state that these are repos and not the originals. As far as China is concerned.........

kai · 29th July 2005, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THERE ARE STILL WEAPONS BEING MADE IN SEVERAL AREAS OF THE WORLD, FOR SOUVINEERS, COLLECTORS, MARTIAL ARTS AND USE. THEY RANGE FROM JUNK TO AS GOOD AS THERE EVER WAS, A VERY GOOD CRAFSTMAN USUALLY IS PROUD OF HIS WORK AND WILL NOT SELL IT FOR SOMETHING ITS NOT BUT WILL CHARGE A GOOD PRICE. SUPERIOR RECENT WORK IS OFTEN MORE EXPENSIVE THAN A ANTIQUE BUT AS IN THE PAST IT IS ALWAYS EXPENSIVE TO BUY A MASTERPIECE FROM THE MASTER.

Hi Vandoo,

I guess I share your ebay sentiments.

We probably need to keep in mind that good weapons used to be (very) expensive - often approaching prices comparable to an expensive car.

Considering this, those of us with pretty limited resources are lucky to even own a single nice blade much less building up decent collections...

Regards,
Kai

29th July 2005, 05:12 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,338	I Wonder When will the first Chinese copy show up ? Or could it be that a good Moro kris is too labor intensive to produce cheaply ? I believe that Indo-Malay sundang are currently being made in Madura but these seem to make no pretensions of being Moro and they are always acid etched .

28th July 2005, 03:40 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE ART OF PRODUCING FAKE OBJECTS GOES WAY BACK AND PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING OF HIGH VALUE OR DEMAND HAS BEEN FAKED OR WILL BE. FORTUNATELY MOST PEOPLE WHO DO THE FAKEING EITHER CUT CORNERS AND DO A POOR JOB OF REPRODUCING THE OBJECT OR JUST GET SOMETHING AND MISREPRESENT IT AS RARE AND VALUEABLE. THEY USUALLY ARE LOOKING FOR A EASY SCORE AND DON'T WANT TO PUT TOO MUCH WORK OR MONEY INTO THE SCAM. BUYING SOMETHING BASED ONLY ON A POOR PICTURE AND DESCRIPTION, THEN SENDING THE MONEY FIRST TO A STRANGER IN ANOTHER PART OF THE COUNTRY OR WORLD PUTS THE BUYER AT A TREMENDOUS DISADVANTAGE. IT IS SURPRIZING THAT EBAY USUALLY WORKS AS WELL AS IT DOES, BUT YOU CAN BE SURE THE PEOPLE LOOKING FOR A EASY BUCK WILL BE CHECKING OUT NEW WAYS TO WORK THEIR SCAMS AND IF SUCESSFUL WILL BECOME MORE NUMEROUS IN FUTURE. THE GOOD THING IS THERE ARE MANY DEALERS ON EBAY WHO ARE FAIR AND HONEST SO IF YOU KNOW THEM OR SOMEONE WHO HAS DONE BUSINESS WITH THEM IT IS USUALLY OK, BUT AS IN LIFE BEWARE OF STRANGERS! THERE ARE STILL WEAPONS BEING MADE IN SEVERAL AREAS OF THE WORLD, FOR SOUVINEERS, COLLECTORS, MARTIAL ARTS AND USE. THEY RANGE FROM JUNK TO AS GOOD AS THERE EVER WAS, A VERY GOOD CRAFSTMAN USUALLY IS PROUD OF HIS WORK AND WILL NOT SELL IT FOR SOMETHING ITS NOT BUT WILL CHARGE A GOOD PRICE. SUPERIOR RECENT WORK IS OFTEN MORE EXPENSIVE THAN A ANTIQUE BUT AS IN THE PAST IT IS ALWAYS EXPENSIVE TO BUY A MASTERPIECE FROM THE MASTER.

28th July 2005, 05:16 AM	#2
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Most common method of faking that is popping up right now in Moro kris, are old blades new fittings. Usually missing the asang-asang, lots of dirt on the hilts, black blade, etc... Essentially the blade tends to have that buried look, and fittings tend to also be very very dirty. These can be hard to identify, especially when done right, there is enough old parts to make wishful collectors turn a blind eye. There are however a couple tells that pop up. A. the seller story These are most commonly sold by antique dealers in PI, and the story is invariably the same, and generally the sword's origins are extravagent eg. its a datu piece or its X years old etc... In many cases where the blade is old, but the fittings are of nicer quality, this can be real hard to tell particularly when held in the hand. B. the frequency that X datu piece of the exact same style just seems to pop up in numerous locations in large numbers. With a little common sense, what is the odds of 5 of the exact same style, design, local, story kris ending up in the same shop, particularly if they are old family heirlooms of considerable age. Even the best reputable dealers, rarely get two swords in stock that are the same style, numerous pieces that look exactly the same, and all happen to be in the same shop, well.... C. modern parts/construction methods, like modern epoxies, solid fittings, etc... Can be hard to see under all the dirt, but once cleaned will be visible The next most common fakes that get pushed in antiques markets are new swords, pawned off as old. These often get the tourist label stamped on them here on the forums, but in certain well many cases this is not warranted. These are the most common on Ebay and other such places, and usually have vague references to age. A few sellers are honest about them, and the quality of the blades/fittings can be quite high. I have not sold my newer pieces, partly because the okir work is so wonderfully done, they make great study pieces for okir. Just dont buy the stories that they are old. With these pieces, the whole fake aspect comes in the story of the seller, and not necessarily that the piece was made with the intention of being passed off as a fake. As for swapping old parts, changing blades, etc... Well it happens, and many times it is no indication of fake or not. Repairs get done. Sometimes gangyas/blades get damaged, and repaired. When done right, most here cannot detect a period repair, and even then there is alot of controversy. Anyways, cant comment much further until the other thread opens up.

29th July 2005, 04:46 PM	#5
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Haven't seen any blades that appear to be fakes, but as noted, there is a lot that have added fittings to increase the value. There has always been a lot of discussion on this forum on restoration v preservation. I think that when one has a exceptional piece, but in poor condition, it is better to preserve. If it is a 1900 kris missing its baca-baca & the hilt is missing the wrap, I see no reason not to restore it, as its original owners would, as long as it is done in the same manner that it was made. When the piece is upgraded, only to increase its value, I think the piece is ruined. I think many of us are likely to own Datu pieces without realizing it. There were many Datu, & for the most part thier swords were most likely very simular to the people they governed. I think a Datu could be compared to 1st level management in todays corporate world. They usually had little input to policy but were required to follow commands given to them; & still having to look out for the interest & demands of the people they led. When times were good, they prospered & could afford to commision an exceptional sword; but I think that would be less common then we imagine.

30th July 2005, 12:57 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,276	Well (being a deep subject and all ) there are some companies that have been making copies of Moro kris for a few years, ie. Kris Cutlery, Museum Replicas, India, etc. These companies state that these are repos and not the originals. As far as China is concerned.........