Help

sirupate · 7th August 2011, 07:25 PM

Has anybody come across a 1796 stirrup hilt with an 1853 pattern blade?

Any idea's if you have?
Cheers Simon

terry1956 · 10th August 2011, 11:42 PM

hi the pattern 1796 light cavalry sabre was still in use with some yeomanry regiments up until the early1860,s. it just maybe that the blade needed to be renewed but to keep uniform the older guard etc was reused. I have also seen older 1796 blades on latter guards etc.
michael

Ian Knight · 11th August 2011, 05:46 PM

Please could we see a close up of the hilt. It looks German to me.

Ian

sirupate · 12th August 2011, 11:28 PM

Hi guys, I came across another, here is the hilt;

Ian Knight · 13th August 2011, 01:42 PM

Hello Simon,
I'm pretty sure that the hilt isn't from a British P1796. The guard is very lightweight and not particularly well made. I would say that the sword is of German manufacture.

Ian

sirupate · 13th August 2011, 02:26 PM

Hello Ian,

Thanks for you observation, however my Dawes of Birmingham 1796 LCS also has a comparatively lightweight hilt;

And why the 1853 pattern blade? so perhaps Michael has a point?

Ian Knight · 13th August 2011, 07:46 PM

Hello Simon,
Can you see where the cross guard joins the knuckleguard? On the hilt of your sword this appears to be bent to this shape very similar to many swords that I have seen from the German states. On a British P1796 officer's sword this junction is almost at right angles and has a re-enforcing piece. On a troopers' sword this junction is the same without the re-enforcing piece. If you look at the hilt on your Dawes sword you will see what I mean.
The ferrule and thereby the grip are also much too narrow.

I have owned many and still own five British P1796 sabres and I am very confident that your sword doesn't have a British P1796 hilt.

Are there any markings on the blade?

Ian

Hotspur · 13th August 2011, 09:54 PM

I am in no way an expert on P shaped hilts but I do read many maybe going by a basic profile and thinking it must be a 1796 hilt.

The top sword looks like a late Prussian artillery sword and the second by Simon also late and maybe infantry and of the continent.

http://www.deutsches-blankwaffenforu...nwaffen-2.html

Just a few there and I'm sure more on Old Swords for browsing

http://zietenhusar.de/blankwaffen/

http://www.militaria-web.de/

Cheers

GC

Ian Knight · 13th August 2011, 11:12 PM

Hello Glen,
I think that the 2nd sword of Simons is a composite sword. It has a British officer's P1976 hilt painted black and it has lost its quillon and has had a very basic wooden grip fitted to it with screws through the 'ears' instead of a rivet. The hilt, with its faceted ferrule and swept 'ears' could possibly be made by Osborn.
The blade doesn't look original to the hilt and is possibly a P1796 trooper's blade. If the blade is marked with 'Dawes, Birmingham' on the back edge I am 99% sure that it is a trooper's blade.

Ian

Hotspur · 13th August 2011, 11:25 PM

Simon posted three images and I was regarding the first two, as opposed to the comma eared 1796 hilt. The two above that one don't look to be 1796 at all to me but what do I know ?8^)~

Cheers

GC

sirupate · 14th August 2011, 10:57 PM

Hello Hotspur, I certainly agree that profile is 1796 LCS hilt, and the gentleman that owns the sword in the second picture felt it was a continental sword, but wasn't sure.

Hello Ian, from info on Old swords, it appears that Dawes may have had blades supplied by Thomas Gill, and where more of an assembler than cutler, so the hilt may well have come from Osborn and potentially commissioned for an Officer? But without being able to go through their books, we will never know. Original Dawes trooper wooden grips filled out like their leather counterparts.
I don't think there were rivet's in the ears originally, I have 1796 Officers LCS with the same ears but not riveted, I think the screws are done to secure it at a later date. Whatever it is or isn't it is a beautifully balanced 1796 LCS.

Thank you for your input everyone

7th August 2011, 07:25 PM	#1
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Help Has anybody come across a 1796 stirrup hilt with an 1853 pattern blade? Any idea's if you have? Cheers Simon

10th August 2011, 11:42 PM	#2
terry1956 Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: yeovil, somerset, uk Posts: 75	maybe hi the pattern 1796 light cavalry sabre was still in use with some yeomanry regiments up until the early1860,s. it just maybe that the blade needed to be renewed but to keep uniform the older guard etc was reused. I have also seen older 1796 blades on latter guards etc. michael

13th August 2011, 07:46 PM	#7
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Hello Simon, Can you see where the cross guard joins the knuckleguard? On the hilt of your sword this appears to be bent to this shape very similar to many swords that I have seen from the German states. On a British P1796 officer's sword this junction is almost at right angles and has a re-enforcing piece. On a troopers' sword this junction is the same without the re-enforcing piece. If you look at the hilt on your Dawes sword you will see what I mean. The ferrule and thereby the grip are also much too narrow. I have owned many and still own five British P1796 sabres and I am very confident that your sword doesn't have a British P1796 hilt. Are there any markings on the blade? Ian Attached Images

11th August 2011, 05:46 PM	#3
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Please could we see a close up of the hilt. It looks German to me. Ian

12th August 2011, 11:28 PM	#4
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hi guys, I came across another, here is the hilt;

13th August 2011, 01:42 PM	#5
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Hello Simon, I'm pretty sure that the hilt isn't from a British P1796. The guard is very lightweight and not particularly well made. I would say that the sword is of German manufacture. Ian

13th August 2011, 02:26 PM	#6
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Ian, Thanks for you observation, however my Dawes of Birmingham 1796 LCS also has a comparatively lightweight hilt; And why the 1853 pattern blade? so perhaps Michael has a point?

13th August 2011, 09:54 PM	#8
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	I am in no way an expert on P shaped hilts but I do read many maybe going by a basic profile and thinking it must be a 1796 hilt. The top sword looks like a late Prussian artillery sword and the second by Simon also late and maybe infantry and of the continent. http://www.deutsches-blankwaffenforu...nwaffen-2.html Just a few there and I'm sure more on Old Swords for browsing http://zietenhusar.de/blankwaffen/ http://www.militaria-web.de/ Cheers GC

13th August 2011, 11:12 PM	#9
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Hello Glen, I think that the 2nd sword of Simons is a composite sword. It has a British officer's P1976 hilt painted black and it has lost its quillon and has had a very basic wooden grip fitted to it with screws through the 'ears' instead of a rivet. The hilt, with its faceted ferrule and swept 'ears' could possibly be made by Osborn. The blade doesn't look original to the hilt and is possibly a P1796 trooper's blade. If the blade is marked with 'Dawes, Birmingham' on the back edge I am 99% sure that it is a trooper's blade. Ian

13th August 2011, 11:25 PM	#10
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Simon posted three images and I was regarding the first two, as opposed to the comma eared 1796 hilt. The two above that one don't look to be 1796 at all to me but what do I know ?8^)~ Cheers GC

14th August 2011, 10:57 PM	#11
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Hotspur, I certainly agree that profile is 1796 LCS hilt, and the gentleman that owns the sword in the second picture felt it was a continental sword, but wasn't sure. Hello Ian, from info on Old swords, it appears that Dawes may have had blades supplied by Thomas Gill, and where more of an assembler than cutler, so the hilt may well have come from Osborn and potentially commissioned for an Officer? But without being able to go through their books, we will never know. Original Dawes trooper wooden grips filled out like their leather counterparts. I don't think there were rivet's in the ears originally, I have 1796 Officers LCS with the same ears but not riveted, I think the screws are done to secure it at a later date. Whatever it is or isn't it is a beautifully balanced 1796 LCS. Thank you for your input everyone