Knife/dagger identification problem

[sisi_d]

This is a Bosnian or Croatian knife. They are called youth knives are worn by young men who were not married.

[gp]

the first knife is typical Balkan, comming from the Ottoman influence but found in Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia till 1945.

The other is typical for Bosnia and surrounding border area of Croatia and Serbia. Also backdating from the Ottoman times.
Typical are the circular , sometimes straighh lines, looking like a "naive"like semi sun with little stars around.
As you can see in the examples.

Used as multi use knives for fishing, hunting and such. Given to older boys but also a good companion for an adult , and ...useful if needed in a fight in those days.
They also exist with a slight longer blade.

[gp]

2 more examples of the first one which are from 1930-1945 Croatia

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by gp

2 more examples of the first one which are from 1930-1945 Croatia

Hi Gunar,

I think the two knives are different from the knife in question, similar yes but different.

I guess that my knife, shown in this thread; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=black is a match.

Regards,
Detlef

[ariel]

The clasp knife is a classical Ваlkan example: short and wide blade with a pronounced clip point. There are many identical examples shown in Tarik Gozo’s book “ Balkan Arms”. The exaggerated clip point is likely a purely technical feature to fit the wide blade into the curved handle: otherwise the blade would massively protrude and make the overall contour uncomfortable. The only example of a similar blade I know is the so-called Malappuram Katti from Kerala: but that area in India was heavily influenced by Arabs and Turks.

But what is really interesting is the blades of the non-clasp variety. They are identical to the panoply of Central Asian P’chaks , commonly known as “Bukhara” or “Uzbek” knives: among the shown examples we see Tugri ( point at the level of the spine), Kaike ( point raised above the spine) and Kazakhcha ( narrow blade with a short clip point). It makes me wonder whether both Balkan and “Uzbek” knives are renditions of ancient Turkic knives retaining their shapes in both localities for the past half-millenium.

[gp]

Originally Posted by ariel

It makes me wonder whether both Balkan and “Uzbek” knives are renditions of ancient Turkic knives retaining their shapes in both localities for the past half-millenium.

could well be: in some Turkish literature this is also mentioned and one Turkish history professor specifically mentioned the origin of these type of knives backdating to the early Turcish tribal dagger types of late Middle Ages to 16th/17th century.
I have the text in English but never knew how to interpret this "claim"

[gp]

Originally Posted by ariel

The clasp knife is a classical Ваlkan example: short and wide blade with a pronounced clip point. There are many identical examples shown in Tarik Gozo’s book “ Balkan Arms”. The exaggerated clip point is likely a purely technical feature to fit the wide blade into the curved handle: otherwise the blade would massively protrude and make the overall contour uncomfortable. The only example of a similar blade I know is the so-called Malappuram Katti from Kerala: but that area in India was heavily influenced by Arabs and Turks.

But what is really interesting is the blades of the non-clasp variety. They are identical to the panoply of Central Asian P’chaks , commonly known as “Bukhara” or “Uzbek” knives: among the shown examples we see Tugri ( point at the level of the spine), Kaike ( point raised above the spine) and Kazakhcha ( narrow blade with a short clip point). It makes me wonder whether both Balkan and “Uzbek” knives are renditions of ancient Turkic knives retaining their shapes in both localities for the past half-millenium.

update / follow up:

just bought one of the non-clasp / straight variety ones (together with a clasp one) in Hercegovina where they are sometimes found & offered for sale and it looks very similar to both shown ones at the top and by Detlef's link. It is a typical knife known and used in the past there, confirmed by the local folks.

With the interaction in the Ottoman times it could well be some kind of exchange took or could have taken place between regions perhaps.
Unfortunately a lot is written about big fancy swords and daggers but hardly anything on this smaller knives

[werecow]

Is that a regulation size cat?

[gp]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Gunar,

I think the two knives are different from the knife in question, similar yes but different.

I guess that my knife, shown in this thread; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=black is a match.

Regards,
Detlef

you are correct: yours and the link are way earlier (pre WWI I would think) than the 2 which I showed.
Yours originate from the Ottoman times or taken as example from them by good makers. Similar can indeed be found in other regions
The 2 which I showed are not that bad but way less and locally made by some craftsmen in Southern Croatia or Herzegovina, decades later WWII or just a decade prior that when a decline in the craftmanship early started or just a cheap and simpler version was made for a non "noble"...
definitely a quality difference as well indeed