Islamic Crossbow?

B.I · 24th July 2005, 03:37 PM

hi fernando,
i am not sure what it is you have attached. are these line drawings taken from something else and to what date?
the crossbow i am looking for is of german design, except the style of the ivory fittings, which is islamic in form. the definate presence and use during this period is a good start for me.
thank you for your efforts and please expand more as to where the information came from. modern (post 1500

) depictions are useful, if included with reference that i can backtrack.
thanks again.

Aqtai · 24th July 2005, 04:09 PM

I used to have G. rex Smith's "Medieval Muslim Horsemanship: A Fourteenth-Century Arabic Cavalry Manual", now long lost. I'm sure one of the pictures was of a mamluk using a crossbow.

Rivkin · 24th July 2005, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqtai

I used to have G. rex Smith's "Medieval Muslim Horsemanship: A Fourteenth-Century Arabic Cavalry Manual", now long lost. I'm sure one of the pictures was of a mamluk using a crossbow.

It's basically the same as Rabie blah-blag Training bla-h bla-h Mamluk Faris,
and I think it's the same text that was quoted in David Nicolle's mamluks (unofortunately my library does not have this book).

Ok, if it's important I can get most of the books I quoted in my library.

B.I · 24th July 2005, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Ok, if it's important I can get most of the books I quoted in my library.

its important to me and i would greatly appreciate any help you can give. its not just a general enquiry, and the results (if any definate ones occur) will go towards publication. it is for this reason that i am trying to push this past speculation.
thanks again.

RSWORD · 24th July 2005, 04:18 PM

Brian

One avenue to consider is the archaeological evidence. This past March at the Timonium show one of our presentors was an archaeologist working in Israel. She shared pictures of one of their work sites which was a 13th century walled forte that was embodied by the Europeans. Many interesting items turned up but specifically in regards to what you were looking at were a large number of crossbow bolts of various sizes. There were also a large number of various size stone cannon ball. The evidence suggested the forte was definitely under attack as they found skeletons with sword and bolt injuries and they even found a horse skeleton with bolt still in the bone. Given the various size bolt, they must have had crossbow from handheld to a wheeled type to shoot massive bolts. Matter of fact, as I recall, they had several Crusader fortes under dig and were finding a lot of archaeological evidence to suggest the crossbow was in strong use in the 13th century. It doesn't help with what the bow itself looked like but it is strong evidence of their use.

B.I · 24th July 2005, 04:38 PM

hi aqtai,
i have found a copy of this book and will look into it. do you remember the nature of the image, ie were they modern depictions, or period manuscripts?
rick,
unfortunately, any archeology evidence from crusader sites may yield crossbow bolts, but from which side? i know the europeans had crossbows, and i have no doubt the muslims may have used captured weapons, if they were an 'advanced' technology that they deemed useful.
however, i am after a crossbow definately made by a muslim hand. the examples in existence are of complete form, but the speculation and debate is whether they were made by muslims, of just a variation of the german design.
still much appreciated and please carry on

Aqtai · 24th July 2005, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi aqtai,
i have found a copy of this book and will look into it. do you remember the nature of the image, ie were they modern depictions, or period manuscripts?
rick,
unfortunately, any archeology evidence from crusader sites may yield crossbow bolts, but from which side? i know the europeans had crossbows, and i have no doubt the muslims may have used captured weapons, if they were an 'advanced' technology that they deemed useful.
however, i am after a crossbow definately made by a muslim hand. the examples in existence are of complete form, but the speculation and debate is whether they were made by muslims, of just a variation of the german design.
still much appreciated and please carry on

I no longer have this book, but I do vaguely remember a picture of a mamluk with a crossbow. The picture, if it exists, is a late 14th century Egyptian (?) miniature painting.

B.I · 24th July 2005, 05:58 PM

thanks aqtai,
if this is the case then this is exactly what i am looking for. i will chase this book down and let you know.

Marc · 24th July 2005, 07:43 PM

Ok, I’m a bit short of time, so, I apologize for “sniping” like this, but I thought that some of these things might be of interest…

In Spain there's documentation about the use of the crossbow by Moorish forces from at least the 13th c.
From that age, in the Cantigas de Alfonso X can be seen contingents of Muslims accompanied by crossbowmen, especially in sieges. It can be argumented, tough, that at that time in Spain (to make a short story of it) wasn't unusual to hire groups of armed men to join one's armies, regardless of their faith, as long as they were going to be reliable. So, Moorish troops could be found in Christian armies, and Christian men in Moorish armies. At that period, also, one would have a hard time to distinguish Moorish from Christian warriors by their panoply, defensive or offensive, alone. Especially in border territories. Sorry, I haven't been able to find online images from the Cantigas that showed the crossbows. But I think it’s something worth mentioning.
From a bit later, we have the frescoes found in the Torre de las Damas (“Tower of the Dames”, in the Partal House, The Alhambra, Granada), from about 1350, and where an army in the march is represented and mounted crossbowmen in Moorish outfit can be seen.

As told by himself, at 1238, while besieging the city of València, then in Muslim hands, King Jaume I of Aragon is hit in the forehead by a crossbow bolt that goes through his helmet and wounds him. The King grabs the bolt, pulls it out, rises in his stirrups and shouts angrily to the city walls in front of his astonished court. Then goes back to his army’s camp, rides around a bit, wiping the blood that falls from his face, to let his men know for sure he’s ok (morale being important in these feudal armies), and then retires to his tent where he spends some days with an horrible headache.

At the other side of the Mediterranean, we have a treatise from 1180 written by Al-Tartusi (I think that in Alexandria) for Saladdin, where, among other weapons and engines, crossbows (yes, the hand-held variety) are discussed. This was, for example, prior to the use of the stirrup, IIRC.

On the other hand, at 1199, King Richard the Lionheart is killed at Acre by a crossbow bolt.

There’s a Nasrid crossbow (sorry, I don’t know the exact attributed date, but the Nasrid dynasty spans from 1231 to 1492) in Granada’s Archaeological Museum (a couple of references here and here )

Some information, including iconography (although quite badly reproduced), about the use of the crossbow in Al-Andalus and the bit about the Cantigas can be found in the book:
SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellan-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E, Madrid, 1993.
It's out of stock, right now, but it can be found via interlibrary loan.

More interesting, being in English, would be:
NICOLLE, David. "Early Islamic Arms and Armour", Ed. by Instituto de Estudios sobre armas antiguas, Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas, Madrid(?), 1976. Also out of stock, I’m afraid.

Finally, and knowing you have access to someone who can read Spanish, I think you might find this reference of the utmost interest…

I hope this helps, somewhat. Again, sorry for not elaborating.

B.I · 24th July 2005, 11:25 PM

marc,
please feel free to 'snipe' any time you want

also, if this is the casual information you can provide when in a hurry, then i look forward to you sitting down with time!
your information was very helpful, and i had always suspected the information needed would come from a spanish source, due to the heavy involvement with moors and a cross-culture that was never more prevelant than in the 'medieval' period.
i shall get the link you sent translated and hope it holds some good information. you hint that it does, but my spanish doesnt get much further than ordering a couple of beers in a bar.
also, i will try and search this source -

SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellan-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E, Madrid, 1993.

no matter how poor, any iconography is desperately needed.
the Nasrid crossbow sounds intriguing, is there any images available. the two links you sent are in spanish, but do these sites hold images?
again, i can get the text sifted through.
also, the frescoes in Torre de las Damas - are there any publications that show these.

please expand when you have time. i will not be able to get the texts translated for another week, so expect some questions from me.

King Jaume I of Aragon sounds like a tough guy. a mere headache from a headshot! i wonder if that goes into mythology and fantasy. i remember the story of the sikh warrior who continued fighting after his head was cut off!!
if not, i think charlton heston ought to come out of retirement, put down his rifle and don a spanish sword for there is another epic to be made

thanks again.

24th July 2005, 03:37 PM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi fernando, i am not sure what it is you have attached. are these line drawings taken from something else and to what date? the crossbow i am looking for is of german design, except the style of the ivory fittings, which is islamic in form. the definate presence and use during this period is a good start for me. thank you for your efforts and please expand more as to where the information came from. modern (post 1500 ) depictions are useful, if included with reference that i can backtrack. thanks again.

24th July 2005, 04:09 PM	#2
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I used to have G. rex Smith's "Medieval Muslim Horsemanship: A Fourteenth-Century Arabic Cavalry Manual", now long lost. I'm sure one of the pictures was of a mamluk using a crossbow.

24th July 2005, 04:18 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,094	Brian One avenue to consider is the archaeological evidence. This past March at the Timonium show one of our presentors was an archaeologist working in Israel. She shared pictures of one of their work sites which was a 13th century walled forte that was embodied by the Europeans. Many interesting items turned up but specifically in regards to what you were looking at were a large number of crossbow bolts of various sizes. There were also a large number of various size stone cannon ball. The evidence suggested the forte was definitely under attack as they found skeletons with sword and bolt injuries and they even found a horse skeleton with bolt still in the bone. Given the various size bolt, they must have had crossbow from handheld to a wheeled type to shoot massive bolts. Matter of fact, as I recall, they had several Crusader fortes under dig and were finding a lot of archaeological evidence to suggest the crossbow was in strong use in the 13th century. It doesn't help with what the bow itself looked like but it is strong evidence of their use.

24th July 2005, 04:38 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, i have found a copy of this book and will look into it. do you remember the nature of the image, ie were they modern depictions, or period manuscripts? rick, unfortunately, any archeology evidence from crusader sites may yield crossbow bolts, but from which side? i know the europeans had crossbows, and i have no doubt the muslims may have used captured weapons, if they were an 'advanced' technology that they deemed useful. however, i am after a crossbow definately made by a muslim hand. the examples in existence are of complete form, but the speculation and debate is whether they were made by muslims, of just a variation of the german design. still much appreciated and please carry on

24th July 2005, 05:58 PM	#8
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	thanks aqtai, if this is the case then this is exactly what i am looking for. i will chase this book down and let you know.

24th July 2005, 07:43 PM	#9
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Ok, I’m a bit short of time, so, I apologize for “sniping” like this, but I thought that some of these things might be of interest… In Spain there's documentation about the use of the crossbow by Moorish forces from at least the 13th c. From that age, in the Cantigas de Alfonso X can be seen contingents of Muslims accompanied by crossbowmen, especially in sieges. It can be argumented, tough, that at that time in Spain (to make a short story of it) wasn't unusual to hire groups of armed men to join one's armies, regardless of their faith, as long as they were going to be reliable. So, Moorish troops could be found in Christian armies, and Christian men in Moorish armies. At that period, also, one would have a hard time to distinguish Moorish from Christian warriors by their panoply, defensive or offensive, alone. Especially in border territories. Sorry, I haven't been able to find online images from the Cantigas that showed the crossbows. But I think it’s something worth mentioning. From a bit later, we have the frescoes found in the Torre de las Damas (“Tower of the Dames”, in the Partal House, The Alhambra, Granada), from about 1350, and where an army in the march is represented and mounted crossbowmen in Moorish outfit can be seen. As told by himself, at 1238, while besieging the city of València, then in Muslim hands, King Jaume I of Aragon is hit in the forehead by a crossbow bolt that goes through his helmet and wounds him. The King grabs the bolt, pulls it out, rises in his stirrups and shouts angrily to the city walls in front of his astonished court. Then goes back to his army’s camp, rides around a bit, wiping the blood that falls from his face, to let his men know for sure he’s ok (morale being important in these feudal armies), and then retires to his tent where he spends some days with an horrible headache. At the other side of the Mediterranean, we have a treatise from 1180 written by Al-Tartusi (I think that in Alexandria) for Saladdin, where, among other weapons and engines, crossbows (yes, the hand-held variety) are discussed. This was, for example, prior to the use of the stirrup, IIRC. On the other hand, at 1199, King Richard the Lionheart is killed at Acre by a crossbow bolt. There’s a Nasrid crossbow (sorry, I don’t know the exact attributed date, but the Nasrid dynasty spans from 1231 to 1492) in Granada’s Archaeological Museum (a couple of references here and here ) Some information, including iconography (although quite badly reproduced), about the use of the crossbow in Al-Andalus and the bit about the Cantigas can be found in the book: SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellan-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E, Madrid, 1993. It's out of stock, right now, but it can be found via interlibrary loan. More interesting, being in English, would be: NICOLLE, David. "Early Islamic Arms and Armour", Ed. by Instituto de Estudios sobre armas antiguas, Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas, Madrid(?), 1976. Also out of stock, I’m afraid. Finally, and knowing you have access to someone who can read Spanish, I think you might find this reference of the utmost interest… I hope this helps, somewhat. Again, sorry for not elaborating.

24th July 2005, 11:25 PM	#10
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	marc, please feel free to 'snipe' any time you want also, if this is the casual information you can provide when in a hurry, then i look forward to you sitting down with time! your information was very helpful, and i had always suspected the information needed would come from a spanish source, due to the heavy involvement with moors and a cross-culture that was never more prevelant than in the 'medieval' period. i shall get the link you sent translated and hope it holds some good information. you hint that it does, but my spanish doesnt get much further than ordering a couple of beers in a bar. also, i will try and search this source - SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellan-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E, Madrid, 1993. no matter how poor, any iconography is desperately needed. the Nasrid crossbow sounds intriguing, is there any images available. the two links you sent are in spanish, but do these sites hold images? again, i can get the text sifted through. also, the frescoes in Torre de las Damas - are there any publications that show these. please expand when you have time. i will not be able to get the texts translated for another week, so expect some questions from me. King Jaume I of Aragon sounds like a tough guy. a mere headache from a headshot! i wonder if that goes into mythology and fantasy. i remember the story of the sikh warrior who continued fighting after his head was cut off!! if not, i think charlton heston ought to come out of retirement, put down his rifle and don a spanish sword for there is another epic to be made thanks again.