Walloon sword for coments

Matchlock · 21st July 2011, 02:15 PM

Hi 'Nando,

I too have to join in the multifold praise of your sword though strictly speaking it is not of Walloon type but a normal field sword for cuirassiers and dragoons.

From what I have learned, a date of ca. 1700 would seem exactly correct as the use of screws on the hilt denotes, as well as the rather small knots. These do not occur on earlier types of swords.

It possibly is of German (Solingen) manufacture, and the numbering and initials relate to the bearer und regimental number. This type was in use almost over Europe, including Spain.

The other nice Walloons illustrated here I would assign to the 1640s to 1660s.

Best,
Michl

fernando · 21st July 2011, 05:56 PM

Thank you so much for your input and pictures Michl.
You will notice that, it has been almost two years since i posted this sword. In the meantime i have learned a bit more about it, namely on the typology side. It seems as the Walloon term has been used (and abused) to define the swords within a detemined area of characteristics. Such is the case of my example; having bought it as being a Wallon sword, i later learned that it is in fact, as you well alert, a Dragoon sword ... although, i repeat, it falls within the Walloon range in several sources.
As for its country of origin, that is indeed my actual concern. Certainly the (regimental) marks in the pommel would bring some light to it but, so far, no one has yet identified them.
Worthy of note is what seems to be the signature of its ownner/user in one of its guard branches.

.

Hotspur · 24th July 2011, 12:58 AM

Green plus three here to see these in other hands. I am wondering about this pair attached below. Obviously later than the Walloons but seem in kind to some other early 18th century pallasch. The swords were espied in the Haddon Hall in Derbyshire. A bit of looking about shows Haddon Hall pretty much redone and any association might be pretty vague but one thought was that they were late 18th century heavy cavalry dress swords. While the 1796 dress might somewhat resemble these, I couldn't agree and was figuring they must be a good bit earlier.

I am afraid I am probably and terminally stuck pursuing early Americana but the Walloons and later pallasch somehow seem to be part of the natural progressions of straight cavalry swords.

Cheers

GC

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2011, 02:36 PM

In reading this thread I became interested in what really the term 'walloon' is all about. Apparantly it is with reference to French speaking people in the south and southeast of Belgium, and parts of France. In the early 17th century many of these people emigrated to Sweden including many if not most involved in metalwork or various parts if iron producing. As many of these were from Liege, they were part of the advent of Swedish arms production as well.
The walloon military swords seem characterized primarily by the bilobate guard which is pierced with a star surrounded by eight holes in overall pattern as well as a knucklebow usually with expanded center section.
As these simple hilt military swords became more well known, more developed hilts seem to have evolved in Germany and many of the Continental principalities, with these typically being termed 'feldeggen' or veldeggen or variations thereof, essentially 'battle swords'. The thumb ring seen on walloons seems also integral in these more developed guards on these hilts.

The French on campaign in Netherlands 1672-73 captured many of these swords, by then produced not only in Sweden but by Germany for the Dutch, and adopted the style for thier own regulation pattern swords. Apparantly from what I have seen, the French patterns pierced bilobate plates are usually convex. It is unclear when the walloon term came into being, but seems to be with 19th century collectors as is often the case.

It is worthy of note that the German made examples of walloons often have the famed running wolf, along with the spurious SAHAGUM name in the fullers. This German adoption of the famed Spanish swordsmiths name is naturally often in varied spelling, but seems more prevalent in swords exported to these regions. Many of the blades to Dutch walloons have Amsterdam city control marks at forte, and often with three petaled flower on the quillon terminal or the four petal kleeblatt (clover).

The markings on the pommel are as noted likely regimental, and German and Dutch units were usually designated by colonels name, the LC perhaps initials from a name with C for cavalry, the R of course regiment. No. 118 of course likely rack number, but may be other.

It would be interesting to see other examples of such unit markings on other pommels.....anybody have any they might post?

21st July 2011, 02:15 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, I too have to join in the multifold praise of your sword though strictly speaking it is not of Walloon type but a normal field sword for cuirassiers and dragoons. From what I have learned, a date of ca. 1700 would seem exactly correct as the use of screws on the hilt denotes, as well as the rather small knots. These do not occur on earlier types of swords. It possibly is of German (Solingen) manufacture, and the numbering and initials relate to the bearer und regimental number. This type was in use almost over Europe, including Spain. The other nice Walloons illustrated here I would assign to the 1640s to 1660s. Best, Michl Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 21st July 2011 at 03:09 PM.

21st July 2011, 05:56 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much for your input and pictures Michl. You will notice that, it has been almost two years since i posted this sword. In the meantime i have learned a bit more about it, namely on the typology side. It seems as the Walloon term has been used (and abused) to define the swords within a detemined area of characteristics. Such is the case of my example; having bought it as being a Wallon sword, i later learned that it is in fact, as you well alert, a Dragoon sword ... although, i repeat, it falls within the Walloon range in several sources. As for its country of origin, that is indeed my actual concern. Certainly the (regimental) marks in the pommel would bring some light to it but, so far, no one has yet identified them. Worthy of note is what seems to be the signature of its ownner/user in one of its guard branches. . Attached Images

24th July 2011, 12:58 AM	#3
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	Green plus three here to see these in other hands. I am wondering about this pair attached below. Obviously later than the Walloons but seem in kind to some other early 18th century pallasch. The swords were espied in the Haddon Hall in Derbyshire. A bit of looking about shows Haddon Hall pretty much redone and any association might be pretty vague but one thought was that they were late 18th century heavy cavalry dress swords. While the 1796 dress might somewhat resemble these, I couldn't agree and was figuring they must be a good bit earlier. I am afraid I am probably and terminally stuck pursuing early Americana but the Walloons and later pallasch somehow seem to be part of the natural progressions of straight cavalry swords. Cheers GC Attached Images

25th July 2011, 02:36 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	In reading this thread I became interested in what really the term 'walloon' is all about. Apparantly it is with reference to French speaking people in the south and southeast of Belgium, and parts of France. In the early 17th century many of these people emigrated to Sweden including many if not most involved in metalwork or various parts if iron producing. As many of these were from Liege, they were part of the advent of Swedish arms production as well. The walloon military swords seem characterized primarily by the bilobate guard which is pierced with a star surrounded by eight holes in overall pattern as well as a knucklebow usually with expanded center section. As these simple hilt military swords became more well known, more developed hilts seem to have evolved in Germany and many of the Continental principalities, with these typically being termed 'feldeggen' or veldeggen or variations thereof, essentially 'battle swords'. The thumb ring seen on walloons seems also integral in these more developed guards on these hilts. The French on campaign in Netherlands 1672-73 captured many of these swords, by then produced not only in Sweden but by Germany for the Dutch, and adopted the style for thier own regulation pattern swords. Apparantly from what I have seen, the French patterns pierced bilobate plates are usually convex. It is unclear when the walloon term came into being, but seems to be with 19th century collectors as is often the case. It is worthy of note that the German made examples of walloons often have the famed running wolf, along with the spurious SAHAGUM name in the fullers. This German adoption of the famed Spanish swordsmiths name is naturally often in varied spelling, but seems more prevalent in swords exported to these regions. Many of the blades to Dutch walloons have Amsterdam city control marks at forte, and often with three petaled flower on the quillon terminal or the four petal kleeblatt (clover). The markings on the pommel are as noted likely regimental, and German and Dutch units were usually designated by colonels name, the LC perhaps initials from a name with C for cavalry, the R of course regiment. No. 118 of course likely rack number, but may be other. It would be interesting to see other examples of such unit markings on other pommels.....anybody have any they might post?