Shashka mostlikely Bukharan

Dom · 19th July 2011, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

the inscription is not clear it says لا الا which would mean there is no but, I think was supposed to say there is not God but Allah, but the person gave up half way...

Good evening
if I translate your Arabic writting;
- "la la" either "no no"
but from the blade, we can't read something, I mean in Arabic
after, it's pure speculation

you mentioned; "Bukhara" as origin, might be,
but at this moment I have an interrogation,
no turquoise in decor, either on scabbard, or the hilt?
it's one of the particularities for daggers coming from this town
the handle is more symptomatically of Caucasus (East of Caspian Sea)
even, Circassian, than Uzbek (West of Caspian Sea)
the roots of Bukhara population are "Tajik" as well as in Samarkand,
that means, more Persian, than Cossack

it's my thought at the sight of this beautiful dagger,
congratulations for this nice acquisition

regards

à +

Dom

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2011, 12:49 AM

Very nice piece AJ !
While this shashka does resemble Uzbek examples, which is likely a better classification than Bukharen in this case, it should be noted that Afghan examples also bear close resemblances. In research done many years ago in trying to identify one of these it seems that the authorities I consulted emphasized this dilemma.Uzbekistan shares a southern border with Afghanistan, and as Dom notes, Bukharen weapons often show a propensity toward the use of turquoise in decoration, but it seems more on daggers. The Bukharen sabres actually are not related to shashkas and are seen with much different hilts, typically with five rivets.

Uzbek shashkas do have this type of long silvered scabbard tip, usually fluted,and it is important to note the extension of the backstrap of the hilt, a characteristic of Central Asian weapons such as Khyber knives as well as shamshirs and of course, these shashkas. The rudimentary work on this appears possibly early 20th century, these are usually calyx shaped.

Regardless, these are extremely rare weapons that seldom turn up in auctions as far as I have seen, and I would presume this is a Uzbek shashka from regions toward Afghanistan. Russia's "Great Game" from 1813 until the beginning of the 20th century established Bukhara, Khiva and many of these principalities as protectorates, and the influence of Caucasian shashkas used by officers in Russian regiments including Cossacks seems likely to have entered these regions through the 19th century.

All the best,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 20th July 2011, 02:05 AM

A nice piece AJ,

I have a few examples of these Central Asian/Afghan sabres myself along with a Bukharan sabre and others.
Other member in the forum also hold examples of the type you show and the Bukharan sabres. You will notice a very distinct difference in styling.

Exact regional aspects are hard to place.
Some show strong Russian military regulation type fittings accosiated directly with Afghanistan regions and seen on the the later Afghanistan Pulowar and other later regualtion swords seen in the hands of Afghan Military officials of the 19th century, yet others show strong local Ethnic influence as does yours.

Yours appears to have a better 'unique custom' blade where others follow a trade pattern seen within the regions.

Ariel has discussed several within these pages that show armoury marks specific to Afghanistan but this doesn't seem to be conclusive to origins due to the vast type of weapons from other regions seen with this stamp.
This example you show is a nice looker with a blade that shows very good potential. Nice to see silver fittings too. Your grip slabs are newish and replaced, likely to keep the old warrior alive and useful. A shame to see the bolster riveted. Overall a nice old piece with good potential.

Your PM ability is not operational.

Gav

Rick · 20th July 2011, 02:14 AM

Moderated status Gav.

AJ1356 · 20th July 2011, 02:44 AM

The dealer first presented this to me as a Safavid sword, and when i first saw it i doubt it that, and knew it had a Central Asian origin. The possibilities are high that is is Afghan, but for certain I can say it is not government or military, I have seen those as well and the workmanship is not at the level of this peice. So ethnic Northern Afghanistan or Central Asian / Bukharan seems probable to me.(one thing to remember I am told by dealers here that the ability to make wootz blades in afghanistan were lost around the time of Safavids, that is probably when they see blades with Jowhar they think it is Safavi) This does not have any kind of simi-precious jewels work, but I have a tiny knofe that does, well take pics later

I do appreciate all your posts as i personally did not know anything about shashkas until i saw this and started researching.

Gavin Nugent · 20th July 2011, 10:50 AM

Here are a couple of examples from my collections being of the same 'type' seen with a Bukharan sabre and Caucasian sabres to compare with.

Gav

ALEX · 20th July 2011, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

The dealer first presented this to me as a Safavid sword, ... I am told by dealers here that the ability to make wootz blades in afghanistan were lost around the time of Safavids, that is probably when they see blades with Jowhar they think it is Safavi...

the first statement tells a lot about the dealer:-) ... the following does not come far either:-) they say it to make the sword more attractive and expensive... every wootz sword they sell is probably Safavid:-)

I think the shashka is more Afghani then Central Asian, or a mix of both. The blade looks much Indian actually!!!! can we see it in full length?

AJ1356 · 20th July 2011, 02:28 PM

Gav, that is a beautiful collection you have, I have seen the one with the blue velvet cover before, probably on this forum.
Alex, the reason the dealers in Afghanistan claim things as Safawi is ofcourse they want to get a higher price, but mainly is because they don't know any better, they ones i have talked to tell me of most items that they just know if it is fake or real. As far as putting an age ro era they are pretty much lost. Most know nothing about antiques they have just fallen into the trade by chance, go figure.

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2011, 04:40 PM

Yeowwweee!!! Gav, there they are!!! Absolutely breathtaking panoply of these sabres. Now I need to go lay down a while

I agree with Alex this shashka seems more inclined toward Afghan. The 'Safavid' term for this weapon is of course somewhat misplaced chronologically, and while that dynasty effectively ended in 1736, its impact obviously remains strong in the Iranian character and culture thus the term is meant more figuratively I would imagine. With this being a relatively modern piece perhaps they cannot have meant Safavid literally, the Safavids did not use shashkas, nor were these forms present in those times. The ricasso on the blade is most interesting as noted and not characteristic of these weapons in these regions but more to Northern India, suggesting the blade may be from there, and even more supporting Afghan provenance.

ALEX · 25th July 2011, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

... The blade looks much Indian actually!!!! can we see it in full length?

The blade is Indian. Refitted and rehilted, this is why crude rivet and incomplete hilt assembly.

20th July 2011, 12:49 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Very nice piece AJ ! While this shashka does resemble Uzbek examples, which is likely a better classification than Bukharen in this case, it should be noted that Afghan examples also bear close resemblances. In research done many years ago in trying to identify one of these it seems that the authorities I consulted emphasized this dilemma.Uzbekistan shares a southern border with Afghanistan, and as Dom notes, Bukharen weapons often show a propensity toward the use of turquoise in decoration, but it seems more on daggers. The Bukharen sabres actually are not related to shashkas and are seen with much different hilts, typically with five rivets. Uzbek shashkas do have this type of long silvered scabbard tip, usually fluted,and it is important to note the extension of the backstrap of the hilt, a characteristic of Central Asian weapons such as Khyber knives as well as shamshirs and of course, these shashkas. The rudimentary work on this appears possibly early 20th century, these are usually calyx shaped. Regardless, these are extremely rare weapons that seldom turn up in auctions as far as I have seen, and I would presume this is a Uzbek shashka from regions toward Afghanistan. Russia's "Great Game" from 1813 until the beginning of the 20th century established Bukhara, Khiva and many of these principalities as protectorates, and the influence of Caucasian shashkas used by officers in Russian regiments including Cossacks seems likely to have entered these regions through the 19th century. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 20th July 2011 at 03:18 AM.

20th July 2011, 02:05 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Nice A nice piece AJ, I have a few examples of these Central Asian/Afghan sabres myself along with a Bukharan sabre and others. Other member in the forum also hold examples of the type you show and the Bukharan sabres. You will notice a very distinct difference in styling. Exact regional aspects are hard to place. Some show strong Russian military regulation type fittings accosiated directly with Afghanistan regions and seen on the the later Afghanistan Pulowar and other later regualtion swords seen in the hands of Afghan Military officials of the 19th century, yet others show strong local Ethnic influence as does yours. Yours appears to have a better 'unique custom' blade where others follow a trade pattern seen within the regions. Ariel has discussed several within these pages that show armoury marks specific to Afghanistan but this doesn't seem to be conclusive to origins due to the vast type of weapons from other regions seen with this stamp. This example you show is a nice looker with a blade that shows very good potential. Nice to see silver fittings too. Your grip slabs are newish and replaced, likely to keep the old warrior alive and useful. A shame to see the bolster riveted. Overall a nice old piece with good potential. Your PM ability is not operational. Gav

20th July 2011, 10:50 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A couple of examples Here are a couple of examples from my collections being of the same 'type' seen with a Bukharan sabre and Caucasian sabres to compare with. Gav Attached Images

20th July 2011, 02:14 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Moderated status Gav.

20th July 2011, 02:44 AM	#5
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	The dealer first presented this to me as a Safavid sword, and when i first saw it i doubt it that, and knew it had a Central Asian origin. The possibilities are high that is is Afghan, but for certain I can say it is not government or military, I have seen those as well and the workmanship is not at the level of this peice. So ethnic Northern Afghanistan or Central Asian / Bukharan seems probable to me.(one thing to remember I am told by dealers here that the ability to make wootz blades in afghanistan were lost around the time of Safavids, that is probably when they see blades with Jowhar they think it is Safavi) This does not have any kind of simi-precious jewels work, but I have a tiny knofe that does, well take pics later I do appreciate all your posts as i personally did not know anything about shashkas until i saw this and started researching.

20th July 2011, 02:28 PM	#8
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	Gav, that is a beautiful collection you have, I have seen the one with the blue velvet cover before, probably on this forum. Alex, the reason the dealers in Afghanistan claim things as Safawi is ofcourse they want to get a higher price, but mainly is because they don't know any better, they ones i have talked to tell me of most items that they just know if it is fake or real. As far as putting an age ro era they are pretty much lost. Most know nothing about antiques they have just fallen into the trade by chance, go figure.

20th July 2011, 04:40 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Yeowwweee!!! Gav, there they are!!! Absolutely breathtaking panoply of these sabres. Now I need to go lay down a while I agree with Alex this shashka seems more inclined toward Afghan. The 'Safavid' term for this weapon is of course somewhat misplaced chronologically, and while that dynasty effectively ended in 1736, its impact obviously remains strong in the Iranian character and culture thus the term is meant more figuratively I would imagine. With this being a relatively modern piece perhaps they cannot have meant Safavid literally, the Safavids did not use shashkas, nor were these forms present in those times. The ricasso on the blade is most interesting as noted and not characteristic of these weapons in these regions but more to Northern India, suggesting the blade may be from there, and even more supporting Afghan provenance.