Talismanic symbols on moro kris blades gallery!

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

For Moro pieces, Cato's Moro Swords is one source that is specifically tailored for Moro swords and discusses for example the "x" as a talismanic mark (p.92 for starters)...........

Other tribes that are not mentioned in Cato can be found with their talismanic symbols in Philippine textile works, like Textiles of the Southern Philippines .............

Frankly José Cato refers only very briefly to the Xs on the spine of a panabas as "ornamental/talismanic", a catch-all phrase which to me seems just a bit meaningless and unsupported. That being said, i am of the mind that the "X" designs on Maurice's blade that curve inward (a very different "X" pattern than the ones Cato notes on the spine of the panabas. I don't think we can consider all type of "x" patterns to be equal) are most probably talismanic in nature. The stylized croc might also be considered to have a talismanic element (certainly the animal is considered powerful), but it seems to me that all these other markings are merely decorative.

[VVV]

Nice idea Maurice for a good reference thread.
I hope all will contribute so we have as many examples as possible for future references. Maybe we first should allow all forumites to post and then in another thread discuss which motifs that might be talismanic and why?
Here are variations of motifs that I suspect might be talismanic on my kris.

Michael

[David]

Originally Posted by VVV

Nice idea Maurice for a good reference thread.
I hope all will contribute so we have as many examples as possible for future references. Maybe we first should allow all forumites to post and then in another thread discuss which motifs that might be talismanic and why?
Here are variations of motifs that I suspect might be talismanic on my kris.

Sorry Michael, but i don't see the point in having one thread to post the images and another to discuss the motifs.
You have posted some fine examples i think. Again i would suggest that some are strong candidates for talismanic signs while others look to be just decoration to me. Beautiful pieces all though....

[VVV]

David, the only reason was to keep the thread more "clean" - like the mandau face gallery.
Anyway as a response to Mohd so far I have never seen a magic square on a moro kris. I doubt that there is one but I would very much like to be proven wrong on this, maybe in this thread?
The most common muslim symbol seems to be what Cato (p. 102) refers to as the Ring of Solomon (The square with looped corners).

Michael

[David]

Originally Posted by VVV

The most common muslim symbol seems to be what Cato (p. 102) refers to as the Ring of Solomon (The square with looped corners).

Well, i guess that's a magick square of sorts...
I don't think we will be all too successful stopping the commentary on posted images so i suggest we just let it come and sort it out as we go...

[kai]

I believe that almost anything related to weapons in their traditional cultural setting (especially personal sidearms like kris/keris) is bound to touch on talismanic functions, magick and local belief systems (which doesn't preclude any features from being also decorative elements and/or signifying status, too).

I agree that there may be features which are likely to be more for showing off than talismanic function (like junggayan pommels and other readily seen features). I'd be very cautious to declare any "hidden" features (like inlaid blades) to be merely decorative though, especially since a lot of the knowledge surrounding talismanic functions obviously has been kept secret and/or lost.

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

Originally Posted by David

Well, i guess that's a magick square of sorts... ...

Ha, ha,
But seriously I took for granted that all of you were familiar with the concept of a "magic square", which is an academic term, and other square symbolism used in magic, like the Ring of Solomon. A better term would maybe be talismanic diagram, like Mohd suggested, because usually either the number or letter values in the square (or rectangle) gives the same sum in each column and row.

A very good reference work is the article Islamic and Indian Magic Squares by Schuyler Cammann. Part I was published in History of Religions Vol. 8, No. 3 (Feb, 1969) pp. 181 - 209 and Part II in History of Religions Vol. 8, No. 4 (May, 1969) pp. 271 - 299.

Michael

[Tatyana Dianova]

I am really sorry to introduce in this thread a non-Moro stuff, but after seeing the Kai's blade I simply cannot hold back The silver "crowns" are almost identical to the decoration on a West Anatolian yataghan I have (with twisted core, by the way...) Do somebody know what these "crowns" mean and how can they be so similar??? It should be some Islamic symbol...

[David]

Originally Posted by VVV

Ha, ha,
But seriously I took for granted that all of you were familiar with the concept of a "magic square", which is an academic term, and other square symbolism used in magic, like the Ring of Solomon. A better term would maybe be talismanic diagram, like Mohd suggested, because usually either the number or letter values in the square (or rectangle) gives the same sum in each column and row.

Michael, of course i am familiar with the concept of the magick square which is why a wrote "of sorts" and ended my comment with a wink....get it?

[Dom]

Originally Posted by VVV

The most common muslim symbol seems to be what Cato (p. 102) refers to as the Ring of Solomon (The square with looped corners).

Michael

Hi Michael
you're right if you are speaking about the Seal of Solomon,
but I dunno of any Islamic graphic evocation of the "ring of Solomon"

I've a collection of more than 50 "Islamic talismanic bowls" Sunnite as well as Shiite
at least I've a good understanding, for what is concerning Muslim symbols, used for magic
here a pics attached for one of my best example, with the Solomon Seal (17th C)

regards

à +

Dom

[Battara]

Is it me or do I not see a star or seal of Solomon on the blade?

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Battara

Is it me or do I not see a star or seal of Solomon on the blade?

there is no seal of Solomon, nor any sign of Islamic origin talismanic on this blade
you're right, I just brought my little knowledge about the talismanic symbols of Islamic origin,
to show what they were

à +

Dom

[Dom]

sorry ... doubloon

à +
Dom

[Maurice]

Thanks all for getting this thread more interesting....I really going to like it more and more, though I have no knowledge whatsoever about the meanings of the symbols.

The circular shapes near the seperation line and on the gangya are very common it seems.
I see it on my blade, as well on Michael's blades and Ron's blade (however different) also.
About the meaning of all these I really don't know, but I can look for more comparison material.

I found a very interesting kris in the Tropenmuseum database, also with these circular forms above the seperation line. It seems that on the gangya it has some x'-s as on Ron's blade, but I can't see it very sharp on the image.

What I also see on most inlaid blades, is that the centre suggests to be of floral motifs, liniar lines, or some kind of waves, surrounded with stars, crowns, arrows...
On top of the floral motives you can find some kind of other symbols.
At my kris in the first post it consists of several "x" forms on the centre of the blade.
On the kris of the Tropenmuseum it is some kind of spherical symbol with an arrow pointing to the gangya, and above that two other talismanic representativs.

[Alam Shah]

Hi all, interesting thread..

Here's a book which might be useful, "Ukkil: Visual Arts of the Sulu Archipelago", by Ligaya Fernando-Amilbangsa. Chapters of interest.. Chapter I - Decorative Motifs and Symbols; Chapter VII - Blacksmithing and Casting; Chapter VIII - Goldsmithing and Silversmithing.

For more details, see here:
http://alamshah67.multiply.com/reviews/item/113

[VVV]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Michael
you're right if you are speaking about the Seal of Solomon,
but I dunno of any Islamic graphic evocation of the "ring of Solomon"

I've a collection of more than 50 "Islamic talismanic bowls" Sunnite as well as Shiite
at least I've a good understanding, for what is concerning Muslim symbols, used for magic
here a pics attached for one of my best example, with the Solomon Seal (17th C)

regards

à +

Dom

Very nice collection of medicine, or poison, bowls, Dom!
I have mostly read about them when I studied Islamic Magic at the University but never seen as many as you have at once. Do you collect talismanic shirts, mirrors, locks and containers too? If so I would appreciate if you could mail me some pictures as references.
The reason why I wrote, "what Cato (p. 102) refers to as the Ring of Solomon (The square with looped corners)" is that I don't know where Cato got that name. I have not seen it in use outside his book.
The symbol, and its meaning as I described it above, is however well documented. My favorite reference for Islamic talismanic symbols is the classic Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation (1933) by Edward Westermarck. Which one/s do you recommend?

Michael

[Dom]

Originally Posted by VVV

My favorite reference for Islamic talismanic symbols is the classic Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation (1933) by Edward Westermarck. Which one/s do you recommend?

Hi Michael
which book/s could I recommend to you ...
I'm a self made man, and my training, it's the one of the street
anyway, thanks for the reference that you gave me,
I found this book in sale, and I will get it
PM in your in box,
otherwise we will be too much "out of subject", comparatively to "Ethnographic Weapons "

à +

Dom